Some New Orleans Saints fans should be ashamed of themselves -- Gerry V podcast

AsylumGuido · 06-18-2014, 07:18 PM

Originally Posted by burningmetal

Drew made more than the tag. Drew wasn't claiming another position. That is literally the worst example you could have given.

Drew wasn't claiming anything. The NFLPA questioned the tag placed by the Saints as being the second tag since the Chargers had tagged him as well. The arbitration was not forced by Brees, but was required to determine a franchise tag CBA related issue between the NFLPA and the league, EXACTLY like what is going on here.

We all know, just like the case with Brees, that Graham and the Saints will make the deal. This is all about precedence formation for future use.

It is not Graham. He has been total class through the whole deal. He has said nothing at all, pro or con. Nothing.

SaintsBro · 06-19-2014, 08:58 AM

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido

Drew wasn't claiming anything.

But he allowed people who work for him to make those claims, he remained 100% silent and said nothing when those claims were made, and so did Jimmy.

Do you actually think if Jimmy Graham was opposed to what's happening now, if he didn't want it to happen, do you really think that he would let it happen, or keep his agent, for ONE SECOND?

It's all very nice to stick up for him, to paint him as an angel, but you're implying that he's not a party to all this, which is naive and just plain wrong. Any reasonable fan of the team can see that Jimmy is involved in his current status and situation. That if he didn't want it to be this way, it would never have come to this. To imply that he's somehow an innocent unblemished angel in all this, is more than a little disingenuous.

AsylumGuido · 06-19-2014, 09:58 AM

Originally Posted by SaintsBro

But he allowed people who work for him to make those claims, he remained 100% silent and said nothing when those claims were made, and so did Jimmy.

Do you actually think if Jimmy Graham was opposed to what's happening now, if he didn't want it to happen, do you really think that he would let it happen, or keep his agent, for ONE SECOND?

It's all very nice to stick up for him, to paint him as an angel, but you're implying that he's not a party to all this, which is naive and just plain wrong. Any reasonable fan of the team can see that Jimmy is involved in his current status and situation. That if he didn't want it to be this way, it would never have come to this. To imply that he's somehow an innocent unblemished angel in all this, is more than a little disingenuous.

Of course he had to agree to allow the NFLPA to try their agenda. Why wouldn't he? But, what I have a problem with are the people vilifying him as a greedy, selfish individual and making false claims that he has made comments about the case and such.

Graham is going to get the same deal, more or less, regardless of how the hearing turns out. It will have very little impact on the overall numbers involved. Graham knows that this is an important question concerning the language within the CBA that needs to be addressed. But, I wonder if he would have agreed to this if he had known the stupidity of some of the fans and much of the press and how his name would be unduly dragged through the mud.

halloween 65 · 06-19-2014, 01:35 PM

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido

Of course he had to agree to allow the NFLPA to try their agenda. Why wouldn't he? But, what I have a problem with are the people vilifying him as a greedy, selfish individual and making false claims that he has made comments about the case and such.

Graham is going to get the same deal, more or less, regardless of how the hearing turns out. It will have very little impact on the overall numbers involved. Graham knows that this is an important question concerning the language within the CBA that needs to be addressed. But, I wonder if he would have agreed to this if he had known the stupidity of some of the fans and much of the press and how his name would be unduly dragged through the mud.

It's not the fans of the Saints being stupid, it's the money grab of a TE that is trying to get WR money from the Saints. Now I believe as a WR I saw somewhere where he graded 91 out of 112 WR, thats no where near top WR money, where 91st falls on the paybooks might be more of an interesting question than one of the top TE's in the league. Still with me. And now you are 100% correct when you say he let the NFLPA file the grievence on his behalf, but before they could do this it was Jimmy giving the O.K. to do it, without his O.K. they could not file a thing on his behalf. So looking at him as Mr. Innocent is looking at him through rose-colored glasses. I'm glad the Saints saw this grievence through, win or lose and if Jimmy wins WR money and we pay I just wonder how many other players on the team get cut or take a cut to give it to a no blocking, alligator arm , TE posing as a WR.

AsylumGuido · 06-19-2014, 01:57 PM

Originally Posted by halloween 65

It's not the fans of the Saints being stupid, it's the money grab of a TE that is trying to get WR money from the Saints. Now I believe as a WR I saw somewhere where he graded 91 out of 112 WR, thats no where near top WR money, where 91st falls on the paybooks might be more of an interesting question than one of the top TE's in the league. Still with me. And now you are 100% correct when you say he let the NFLPA file the grievence on his behalf, but before they could do this it was Jimmy giving the O.K. to do it, without his O.K. they could not file a thing on his behalf. So looking at him as Mr. Innocent is looking at him through rose-colored glasses. I'm glad the Saints saw this grievence through, win or lose and if Jimmy wins WR money and we pay I just wonder how many other players on the team get cut or take a cut to give it to a no blocking, alligator arm , TE posing as a WR.

You really don't get it, do you?

halloween 65 · 06-19-2014, 01:59 PM

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido

You really don't get it, do you?

Whats not to get?

SaintFanInATLHELL · 06-20-2014, 08:35 AM

Originally Posted by halloween 65

Whats not to get?

The fact that it's all simply leverage in a negotiation as opposed the "naked money grab by the selfish greedy bum" that many seem to make it out to be.

The tag is leverage by definition to both sides. It's leverage for the player because it's a massive cap hit to the team immediately. It's leverage for the team because it prevents the player from truly being a free agent and getting the opportunity to market on the open market free of constraints.
Usually the tag is an annoyance that pisses both sides off enough to get them to come to the table and each concede enough to get a deal done.

The wrinkle with the grievance is that it finally sets the true value of the tag. Honestly the NFLPA winning the grievance will put the Saints in a tough spot because they have to have that extra $5 million on the books immediately which IIRC they do not have. That's the leverage necessary to create the concessions to get the deal done quickly. OTOH if the NFL wins, that negates that leverage and forces JG and Sexton to come to the table ready to give up some part of the guaranteed money, years (shorter is better for the player), and front end salary, which is more likely to be paid, in order to get the deal done, get the huge signing bonus, and the security of a longer term contract.

In any case the average salary was always going to be somewhere between the $7 million and the $12 million of the two tags. While I agree that JG doesn't deserve receiver money (because he is not actually a receiver), he does deserve to be paid as the best TE in the NFL. So the final contract should come in above Gronk's contract extension along with increase based on the fact that Gronk's extension was 2 years ago and the rising salary cap.

Finally I chuckle at the "nobility" of only asking for a fair and honest wage. As someone said earlier in this thread, we are in a capitalistic society. You are worth whatever value you can get for your services. Only a fool would turn down a potential increase "because I'm really not worth that much."

SFIAH

06-18-2014, 07:18 PM	#1
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,622	Re: Some New Orleans Saints fans should be ashamed of themselves -- Gerry V podcast Originally Posted by burningmetal Drew made more than the tag. Drew wasn't claiming another position. That is literally the worst example you could have given. Drew wasn't claiming anything. The NFLPA questioned the tag placed by the Saints as being the second tag since the Chargers had tagged him as well. The arbitration was not forced by Brees, but was required to determine a franchise tag CBA related issue between the NFLPA and the league, EXACTLY like what is going on here. We all know, just like the case with Brees, that Graham and the Saints will make the deal. This is all about precedence formation for future use. It is not Graham. He has been total class through the whole deal. He has said nothing at all, pro or con. Nothing.

06-19-2014, 08:58 AM	#2
SaintsBro Site Donor Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: in line with my ridiculous CLEAR PLASTIC BAG Posts: 3,650 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Some New Orleans Saints fans should be ashamed of themselves -- Gerry V podcast Originally Posted by AsylumGuido Drew wasn't claiming anything. But he allowed people who work for him to make those claims, he remained 100% silent and said nothing when those claims were made, and so did Jimmy. Do you actually think if Jimmy Graham was opposed to what's happening now, if he didn't want it to happen, do you really think that he would let it happen, or keep his agent, for ONE SECOND? It's all very nice to stick up for him, to paint him as an angel, but you're implying that he's not a party to all this, which is naive and just plain wrong. Any reasonable fan of the team can see that Jimmy is involved in his current status and situation. That if he didn't want it to be this way, it would never have come to this. To imply that he's somehow an innocent unblemished angel in all this, is more than a little disingenuous.

06-19-2014, 09:58 AM	#3
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,622	Re: Some New Orleans Saints fans should be ashamed of themselves -- Gerry V podcast Originally Posted by SaintsBro But he allowed people who work for him to make those claims, he remained 100% silent and said nothing when those claims were made, and so did Jimmy. Do you actually think if Jimmy Graham was opposed to what's happening now, if he didn't want it to happen, do you really think that he would let it happen, or keep his agent, for ONE SECOND? It's all very nice to stick up for him, to paint him as an angel, but you're implying that he's not a party to all this, which is naive and just plain wrong. Any reasonable fan of the team can see that Jimmy is involved in his current status and situation. That if he didn't want it to be this way, it would never have come to this. To imply that he's somehow an innocent unblemished angel in all this, is more than a little disingenuous. Of course he had to agree to allow the NFLPA to try their agenda. Why wouldn't he? But, what I have a problem with are the people vilifying him as a greedy, selfish individual and making false claims that he has made comments about the case and such. Graham is going to get the same deal, more or less, regardless of how the hearing turns out. It will have very little impact on the overall numbers involved. Graham knows that this is an important question concerning the language within the CBA that needs to be addressed. But, I wonder if he would have agreed to this if he had known the stupidity of some of the fans and much of the press and how his name would be unduly dragged through the mud.

06-19-2014, 01:35 PM	#4
halloween 65 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Grand Haven, Michigan by way of a little Mississippi River town in Louisiana Posts: 5,893	Re: Some New Orleans Saints fans should be ashamed of themselves -- Gerry V podcast Originally Posted by AsylumGuido Of course he had to agree to allow the NFLPA to try their agenda. Why wouldn't he? But, what I have a problem with are the people vilifying him as a greedy, selfish individual and making false claims that he has made comments about the case and such. Graham is going to get the same deal, more or less, regardless of how the hearing turns out. It will have very little impact on the overall numbers involved. Graham knows that this is an important question concerning the language within the CBA that needs to be addressed. But, I wonder if he would have agreed to this if he had known the stupidity of some of the fans and much of the press and how his name would be unduly dragged through the mud. It's not the fans of the Saints being stupid, it's the money grab of a TE that is trying to get WR money from the Saints. Now I believe as a WR I saw somewhere where he graded 91 out of 112 WR, thats no where near top WR money, where 91st falls on the paybooks might be more of an interesting question than one of the top TE's in the league. Still with me. And now you are 100% correct when you say he let the NFLPA file the grievence on his behalf, but before they could do this it was Jimmy giving the O.K. to do it, without his O.K. they could not file a thing on his behalf. So looking at him as Mr. Innocent is looking at him through rose-colored glasses. I'm glad the Saints saw this grievence through, win or lose and if Jimmy wins WR money and we pay I just wonder how many other players on the team get cut or take a cut to give it to a no blocking, alligator arm , TE posing as a WR.

06-19-2014, 01:57 PM	#5
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,622	Re: Some New Orleans Saints fans should be ashamed of themselves -- Gerry V podcast Originally Posted by halloween 65 It's not the fans of the Saints being stupid, it's the money grab of a TE that is trying to get WR money from the Saints. Now I believe as a WR I saw somewhere where he graded 91 out of 112 WR, thats no where near top WR money, where 91st falls on the paybooks might be more of an interesting question than one of the top TE's in the league. Still with me. And now you are 100% correct when you say he let the NFLPA file the grievence on his behalf, but before they could do this it was Jimmy giving the O.K. to do it, without his O.K. they could not file a thing on his behalf. So looking at him as Mr. Innocent is looking at him through rose-colored glasses. I'm glad the Saints saw this grievence through, win or lose and if Jimmy wins WR money and we pay I just wonder how many other players on the team get cut or take a cut to give it to a no blocking, alligator arm , TE posing as a WR. You really don't get it, do you?

06-19-2014, 01:59 PM	#6
halloween 65 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Grand Haven, Michigan by way of a little Mississippi River town in Louisiana Posts: 5,893	Re: Some New Orleans Saints fans should be ashamed of themselves -- Gerry V podcast Originally Posted by AsylumGuido You really don't get it, do you? Whats not to get?

06-20-2014, 08:35 AM	#7
SaintFanInATLHELL The Professor Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Lithonia, GA Posts: 2,783	Re: Some New Orleans Saints fans should be ashamed of themselves -- Gerry V podcast Originally Posted by halloween 65 Whats not to get? The fact that it's all simply leverage in a negotiation as opposed the "naked money grab by the selfish greedy bum" that many seem to make it out to be. The tag is leverage by definition to both sides. It's leverage for the player because it's a massive cap hit to the team immediately. It's leverage for the team because it prevents the player from truly being a free agent and getting the opportunity to market on the open market free of constraints. Usually the tag is an annoyance that pisses both sides off enough to get them to come to the table and each concede enough to get a deal done. The wrinkle with the grievance is that it finally sets the true value of the tag. Honestly the NFLPA winning the grievance will put the Saints in a tough spot because they have to have that extra $5 million on the books immediately which IIRC they do not have. That's the leverage necessary to create the concessions to get the deal done quickly. OTOH if the NFL wins, that negates that leverage and forces JG and Sexton to come to the table ready to give up some part of the guaranteed money, years (shorter is better for the player), and front end salary, which is more likely to be paid, in order to get the deal done, get the huge signing bonus, and the security of a longer term contract. In any case the average salary was always going to be somewhere between the $7 million and the $12 million of the two tags. While I agree that JG doesn't deserve receiver money (because he is not actually a receiver), he does deserve to be paid as the best TE in the NFL. So the final contract should come in above Gronk's contract extension along with increase based on the fact that Gronk's extension was 2 years ago and the rising salary cap. Finally I chuckle at the "nobility" of only asking for a fair and honest wage. As someone said earlier in this thread, we are in a capitalistic society. You are worth whatever value you can get for your services. Only a fool would turn down a potential increase "because I'm really not worth that much." SFIAH
	Super Bowl Championships: New Orleans Saints:1, Carolina:0, Atlanta Chokers: STILL ZERO Only Atlanta choked in an unchokable situation... Life is definitely good.

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