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brees84 03-14-2017 01:27 PM
Re: Breaking: Malcolm Butler visiting Saints Thursday!
 
Butler is legit. Great corner in his prime. If this deal goes through then we will probably overpay. (draft picks and big contract) But I can't say he is system guy and just an average corner... (different game tape than some other BB products)

Rugby Saint II 03-14-2017 01:42 PM
Re: Breaking: Malcolm Butler visiting Saints Thursday!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by halloween 65 (Post 740643)
I use to have no faith in our drafting but Ireland has helped me with that more than one could know. It's a great D draft and I really hated giving NE that 4th in the Cooks trade to be honest solely because of depth. I'm not in favor of having to give high picks when they can be used to build on.
True DAT!:bng:

AsylumGuido 03-14-2017 01:59 PM
Re: Breaking: Malcolm Butler visiting Saints Thursday!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by voodooido (Post 740631)
You might be the only person on earth that thinks those two are safe. 3 7-9 seasons in a row with Brees as qb.
Who is going to fire them? Both Benson and Gayle love them. They are like family. I have pointed this out many times before, the relationship between the owner of the Saints, Loomis and Payton is unique to the NFL.

AsylumGuido 03-14-2017 02:07 PM
Re: Breaking: Malcolm Butler visiting Saints Thursday!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord_Saint83 (Post 740630)
I heard they were going to ask Armstead to convert his money to a signing bonus i guess this is why perhaps. Im fine with it as long as we don't go over 10-11 mil a year and only give up a second. There's a reason the saints are scheduled first it's not a coincidence.
If you are talking about his $5 million roster bonus then the Saints don't have to ask Armstead for anything. It's not up to him. The team has the right to convert roster bonuses signing bonuses anytime they want without any input from the player. The reason being the player gets the same check either way. It is how the money is accounted for on the books that makes the difference. There is around $14 million in roster bonuses that can be converted at this time.

spkb25 03-14-2017 02:18 PM
Re: Breaking: Malcolm Butler visiting Saints Thursday!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AsylumGuido (Post 740661)
Who is going to fire them? Both Benson and Gayle love them. They are like family. I have pointed this out many times before, the relationship between the owner of the Saints, Loomis and Payton is unique to the NFL.
More conjecture and rhetoric. 7-9 again and he is as good as gone. He was forced to fire staff

spkb25 03-14-2017 02:20 PM
Re: Breaking: Malcolm Butler visiting Saints Thursday!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by voodooido (Post 740631)
You might be the only person on earth that thinks those two are safe. 3 7-9 seasons in a row with Brees as qb.
he is and he talks about things he has absolutely no privilege of knowing. It seriously kind of makes me laugh because I cannot tell if he does it to annoy other members or if he sincerely fancies himself "on the inside". There are people who make themselves believe they're somehow associated with people they're not. LMMFAO. Either way it is pretty comical

spkb25 03-14-2017 02:22 PM
Re: Breaking: Malcolm Butler visiting Saints Thursday!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by halloween 65 (Post 740636)
I couldn't agree more. Payton is selling his soul trying to put together a D for his boy Allen(which I have no faith whatsoever in) to run. It amazes me how long and many years that fielding a dreadful D has caused us to stink it up and he has done little to nothing til now. I think Paytons fate is going to depend totally on how his boys Allens D performs and if it fails I hope they fire Payton and Allen.
dude we sold our souls previously to get a better d in here. Look how many bad contracts bro

spkb25 03-14-2017 02:25 PM
Re: Breaking: Malcolm Butler visiting Saints Thursday!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jnormand (Post 740611)
Remember we're playing with New England. It means they are gonna **** us if things aren't done right. They always get the upper hand. A second round pick. Please don't go higher than that. Just the second round pick. And don't sign this guy for more than 12 million a year.
didn't he turn down 14?

blackangold 03-14-2017 02:30 PM
Re: Breaking: Malcolm Butler visiting Saints Thursday!
 
They just don't seem to get it...
We should be spending money on guys in the front 7. Always over paying for skilled players. Would like to see what we could do with a pass rush...

spkb25 03-14-2017 02:53 PM
Re: Breaking: Malcolm Butler visiting Saints Thursday!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackangold (Post 740676)
They just don't seem to get it...
We should be spending money on guys in the front 7. Always over paying for skilled players. Would like to see what we could do with a pass rush...
dominating both lines has always been a fine way to win

dizzle88 03-14-2017 03:17 PM
Re: Breaking: Malcolm Butler visiting Saints Thursday!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackangold (Post 740676)
They just don't seem to get it...
We should be spending money on guys in the front 7. Always over paying for skilled players. Would like to see what we could do with a pass rush...
In all fairness, besides Donta Hightower, there's really no one left to sign up front. That's why I hope we keep both 1st round picks, spend both on front 7 defensive picks.

rezburna 03-14-2017 03:18 PM
Re: Breaking: Malcolm Butler visiting Saints Thursday!
 
It's glaringly apparent that the Saints are trying to win it all this year while Brees is still here. They're going all out for it. I was concerned with us overpaying for Butler, but not so much anymore. If we make all these improvements and still can't go deep in the playoffs it's time to let Brees move on. That'll open up plenty of cap right there.

burningmetal 03-14-2017 03:23 PM
Re: Breaking: Malcolm Butler visiting Saints Thursday!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottF (Post 740638)
Man, a lot of people really have a lot of faith in our drafting skills.
I'd much rather have a 27 year old starter than another Cie Grant Jonathan Sullivan Usama Young Sedric Ellis and 5 different CB's

Jonathan Vilma for a second was one of our best deals ever
I disagree with you on the basis that your comparison is not apples to apples... And a few other things. I wouldn't say that I trust our drafting, at all. I'd love to have proven commodities. But I have a couple of problems with Butler. He does not play a position of need for us. As I said earlier, I realize that we have to count on Williams and Breaux to stay healthy, but when they're out there, they are pretty good. They aren't perfect, but they are also young. Injuries can happen to anyone. It's not like they blew out their knees. Williams is coming off a significant concussion which becomes problematic if he has too many of those, but as of now he should be a full go.

Do we really need to shell out a high draft pick for another corner? Here's another problem I have with Butler: He comes from a system that is known to make players look better than they are. What makes us so sure that he is a "proven" commodity? And others have mentioned, accurately, that Butler also hasn't matched up very much with the other team's number 1, and plays in a weak division for QB's. Again, is he really THAT proven? Sure, the draft is a crap shoot. How much better have we fared with free agents and trades? Remember guys like Tebucky Jones and Dwight Smith? Those were "can't miss" guys, as was Jairus Byrd, whom most of us thought was a star at the time. Jason David? Aubrayo Franklin, Sean Rogers, David Hawthorne and on it goes.

I would certainly say that Loomis and company doesn't have the greatest track record in identifying "stars" but despite that, it is nevertheless necessary to take calculated risks from time to time. You mentioned the Vilma deal, and that was a great trade. For two reasons: One was that we didn't give up all that much. The other was that we desperately needed a middle linebacker and a leader for a defense that was just atrocious. And, thankfully, he was one who lived up to expectations.

Butler, in my opinion, is not worth that kind of risk. For one, we're not talking about a second rounder, we're talking about the number 11 pick. I'm all for commodities over unknowns, but if we're not getting a pass rusher as that "proven commodity" then I'd rather keep my pick and take my chances with that. Because, as I illustrated with the failed signings, you never really know 100% what you are going to get from any player, anyway. But in any instance you should not sell out for something that isn't of great need.

When we traded for Mike McKenzie all those years ago, that was a great deal. We needed a corner desperately, and he was a really good player. Unfortunately the rest of the defense sucked for a couple of years, but he was a huge upgrade. We are thin as crap at DE right now. Selling our top pick for a corner seems like a bad idea at the moment.

burningmetal 03-14-2017 03:28 PM
Re: Breaking: Malcolm Butler visiting Saints Thursday!
 
And obviously Drew Brees was a home run, but that goes without saying. They don't make ALL bad moves. They actually made some really good one's, once upon a time.

rezburna 03-14-2017 03:29 PM
Re: Breaking: Malcolm Butler visiting Saints Thursday!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by burningmetal (Post 740683)
I disagree with you on the basis that your comparison is not apples to apples... And a few other things. I wouldn't say that I trust our drafting, at all. I'd love to have proven commodities. But I have a couple of problems with Butler. He does not play a position of need for us. As I said earlier, I realize that we have to count on Williams and Breaux to stay healthy, but when they're out there, they are pretty good. They aren't perfect, but they are also young. Injuries can happen to anyone. It's not like they blew out their knees. Williams is coming off a significant concussion which becomes problematic if he has too many of those, but as of now he should be a full go.

Do we really need to shell out a high draft pick for another corner? Here's another problem I have with Butler: He comes from a system that is known to make players look better than they are. What makes us so sure that he is a "proven" commodity? And others have mentioned, accurately, that Butler also hasn't matched up very much with the other team's number 1, and plays in a weak division for QB's. Again, is he really THAT proven? Sure, the draft is a crap shoot. How much better have we fared with free agents and trades? Remember guys like Tebucky Jones and Dwight Smith? Those were "can't miss" guys, as was Jairus Byrd, whom most of us thought was a star at the time. Jason David? Aubrayo Franklin, Sean Rogers, David Hawthorne and on it goes.

I would certainly say that Loomis and company doesn't have the greatest track record in identifying "stars" but despite that, it is nevertheless necessary to take calculated risks from time to time. You mentioned the Vilma deal, and that was a great trade. For two reasons: One was that we didn't give up all that much. The other was that we desperately needed a middle linebacker and a leader for a defense that was just atrocious. And, thankfully, he was one who lived up to expectations.

Butler, in my opinion, is not worth that kind of risk. For one, we're not talking about a second rounder, we're talking about the number 11 pick. I'm all for commodities over unknowns, but if we're not getting a pass rusher as that "proven commodity" then I'd rather keep my pick and take my chances with that. Because, as I illustrated with the failed signings, you never really know 100% what you are going to get from any player, anyway. But in any instance you should not sell out for something that isn't of great need.

When we traded for Mike McKenzie all those years ago, that was a great deal. We needed a corner desperately, and he was a really good player. Unfortunately the rest of the defense sucked for a couple of years, but he was a huge upgrade. We are thin as crap at DE right now. Selling our top pick for a corner seems like a bad idea at the moment.
The Saints are talking about giving up a 1st for Butler.

saintsfan1976 03-14-2017 03:32 PM
Re: Breaking: Malcolm Butler visiting Saints Thursday!
 
For you stat geeks, in 2016 Butler was the #3 cover corner by PFF (91.1)

The stat website also listed him as the #4 overall corner (90.4)

That's far from being a "system guy". And if he signs we have the best CB tandem since Porter & Greer.

I'm warming up.

burningmetal 03-14-2017 03:33 PM
Re: Breaking: Malcolm Butler visiting Saints Thursday!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rezburna (Post 740685)
The Saints are talking about giving up a 1st for Butler.
I know. I just wrote an essay, basically, on why I don't like that.

And it isn't just talk. If the Saints actually want Butler, they have no choice. The Patriots are not going to match any offer we make, and we all know it. That means we give up our #11, automatically.

lee909 03-14-2017 03:35 PM
Re: Breaking: Malcolm Butler visiting Saints Thursday!
 
Which is why they wont make an offer
They will see what he wants and if they can come to terms before speaking to the Pats regarding a trade. No point making the trade if you cant agree a contract first

burningmetal 03-14-2017 03:37 PM
Re: Breaking: Malcolm Butler visiting Saints Thursday!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by saintsfan1976 (Post 740687)
For you stat geeks, in 2016 Butler was the #3 cover corner by PFF (91.1)

The stat website also listed him as the #4 overall corner (90.4)

That's far from being a "system guy". And if he signs we have the best CB tandem since Porter & Greer.

I'm warming up.
Thanks for trying to butter up this Butler hype for the doubters, such as myself. But PFF grades are utterly meaningless. They have no ability to test for whether a guy is better because of his system or not. And when he isn't facing off against number 1's, how do you fairly compare him to other top corners? You can't. This is just one of many flaws with PFF.

burningmetal 03-14-2017 03:39 PM
Re: Breaking: Malcolm Butler visiting Saints Thursday!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lee909 (Post 740689)
Which is why they wont make an offer
They will see what he wants and if they can come to terms before speaking to the Pats regarding a trade. No point making the trade if you cant agree a contract first
Yes, of course the Saints will work out a deal. And the Patriots won't match that offer. Meaning we lose our #11 pick. What are you getting at?

lee909 03-14-2017 03:43 PM
Re: Breaking: Malcolm Butler visiting Saints Thursday!
 
He wont sign a deal
They talk about a deal in principle


ML: What are you looking for each year?

MB: 14ml a year

ML: We are thinking more in the 12ml range

and on and on

ML: Ok that sounds like something we can think about and we will get back to you in the coming days


ML: Hey Bill,what do you want in trade for Butler

BB: We want a 1

ML we are thinking


And on

ML: Ok thats a deal we can do

BB: Malcolm we have a trade offer from the Saints,we cant execute a trade without you signing your tender

Tender signed
Deal done

Butler turns up in Nola

A few days later announced that the Saints and Butler have agreed a new long term agreement

burningmetal 03-14-2017 03:44 PM
Re: Breaking: Malcolm Butler visiting Saints Thursday!
 
They can't NOT offer him. They can't negotiate if they don't offer, and the Patriots aren't going to just let him go for lesser picks when they can get the number 11. I mean, I hope I'm totally wrong, but I don't see the Patriots playing nice with us after that Cooks trade.

burningmetal 03-14-2017 03:48 PM
Re: Breaking: Malcolm Butler visiting Saints Thursday!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lee909 (Post 740692)
He wont sign a deal
They talk about a deal in principle


ML: What are you looking for each year?

MB: 14ml a year

ML: We are thinking more in the 12ml range

and on and on

ML: Ok that sounds like something we can think about and we will get back to you in the coming days


ML: Hey Bill,what do you want in trade for Butler

BB: We want a 1

ML we are thinking


And on

ML: Ok thats a deal we can do

BB: Malcolm we have a trade offer from the Saints,we cant execute a trade without you signing your tender

Tender signed
Deal done

Butler turns up in Nola

A few days later announced that the Saints and Butler have agreed a new long term agreement
Right, I get all of that, Lee. You're arguing that they won't get him without making sure they have a long term deal. That's not what I'm arguing. I'm saying he's not worth it, in my opinion. Giving up our Number 1 pick is automatic.

You seem to be assuming, though, that the Patriots would be willing to trade him without waiting for the Saints to make an offer. What makes you believe they will operate on our terms?

lee909 03-14-2017 03:51 PM
Re: Breaking: Malcolm Butler visiting Saints Thursday!
 
So long as he signs nothing then no deal has been agreed(even if it has behind closed doors). Bring him in and send him back without a deal and see what they want in trade. Thats all im saying.


All teams talk to agents behind the scenes to talk outline of numbers


The Pats may well take less as if they dont they have a p1ssed off player ad a player that is a FA next year and assuming they dont sign a same value player the max they get is a 2019 3rd round comp pick

burningmetal 03-14-2017 03:55 PM
Re: Breaking: Malcolm Butler visiting Saints Thursday!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lee909 (Post 740695)
So long as he signs nothing then no deal has been agreed(even if it has behind closed doors). Bring him in and send him back without a deal and see what they want in trade. Thats all im saying.


All teams talk to agents behind the scenes to talk outline of numbers


The Pats may well take less as if they dont they have a p1ssed off player ad a player that is a FA next year and assuming they dont sign a same value player the max they get is a 2019 3rd round comp pick
You could very well be right that they do that, though I don't see it happening that way. I think it's more likely they shop him to another team if the Saints won't make a formal offer.

I don't want to even give up the #32 pick for him, personally, for the reasons I've stated. But I absolutely would not give up the #11.

spkb25 03-14-2017 04:00 PM
Re: Breaking: Malcolm Butler visiting Saints Thursday!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by burningmetal (Post 740696)
You could very well be right that they do that, though I don't see it happening that way. I think it's more likely they shop him to another team if the Saints won't make a formal offer.

I don't want to even give up the #32 pick for him, personally, for the reasons I've stated. But I absolutely would not give up the #11.
Me neither. Am I wonrg or did he turn down 14m per year from the Pats?

lee909 03-14-2017 04:03 PM
Re: Breaking: Malcolm Butler visiting Saints Thursday!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by burningmetal (Post 740696)
You could very well be right that they do that, though I don't see it happening that way. I think it's more likely they shop him to another team if the Saints won't make a formal offer.

I don't want to even give up the #32 pick for him, personally, for the reasons I've stated. But I absolutely would not give up the #11.
Im in full agreement

I dont want to give anything beyond a 3 up
I could stomach a 2 but not happily

Id rather draft a CB and bring back Moore and go after Butler next year if needed fr nothing

burningmetal 03-14-2017 04:16 PM
Re: Breaking: Malcolm Butler visiting Saints Thursday!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lee909 (Post 740700)
Im in full agreement

I dont want to give anything beyond a 3 up
I could stomach a 2 but not happily

Id rather draft a CB and bring back Moore and go after Butler next year if needed fr nothing
Yeah, I'm just not really feeling the priority behind getting a corner at all, but if they are concerned about depth, I could see drafting one in the second round and using those two first rounders on more pressing needs.

But if they think they HAVE to have Butler, I wouldn't want to give up more than a 2nd, either. I'm as certain as I can be that they would trade rape us again, though.

AsylumGuido 03-14-2017 05:06 PM
Re: Breaking: Malcolm Butler visiting Saints Thursday!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by spkb25 (Post 740667)
More conjecture and rhetoric. 7-9 again and he is as good as gone. He was forced to fire staff
He wasn't FORCED to fire anyone. Payton runs the show. Benson wouldn't order him to fire anyone. Loomis sure wouldn't. He fired them because they weren't doing their jobs adequately. It's as simple as that. Payton is FAR from stupid. He clearly knew changes were needed in those areas. Hell, the dimwits around here could see that, you know Payton had to have been able to see the same. We all know your bias against Payton. It borders on illogical hatred. :rolleyes:

AsylumGuido 03-14-2017 05:11 PM
Re: Breaking: Malcolm Butler visiting Saints Thursday!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by burningmetal (Post 740688)
I know. I just wrote an essay, basically, on why I don't like that.

And it isn't just talk. If the Saints actually want Butler, they have no choice. The Patriots are not going to match any offer we make, and we all know it. That means we give up our #11, automatically.
Not if he signs the tender and then they trade him. The Saints can then replace that tender with an agreed upon long-term deal. A 1st rounder doesn't come into play at all.

|Mitch| 03-14-2017 05:11 PM
Re: Breaking: Malcolm Butler visiting Saints Thursday!
 

Interesting...

Rsanders24 03-14-2017 05:22 PM
Re: Breaking: Malcolm Butler visiting Saints Thursday!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottF (Post 740638)
Man, a lot of people really have a lot of faith in our drafting skills.
I'd much rather have a 27 year old starter than another Cie Grant Jonathan Sullivan Usama Young Sedric Ellis and 5 different CB's

Jonathan Vilma for a second was one of our best deals ever
The difference was Vilma was a beast in college and considered the best 4-3 MLB in the draft which is why he went 12th overall (I think). The Jets tried to make him a ILB in a 3-4 which was a disaster. This one doesn't have the same feeling and it's a high risk. If we are going to play a lot of zone schemes then maybe but man to man in our division has me worried.

|Mitch| 03-14-2017 05:28 PM
Re: Breaking: Malcolm Butler visiting Saints Thursday!
 

|Mitch| 03-14-2017 05:31 PM
Re: Breaking: Malcolm Butler visiting Saints Thursday!
 

rezburna 03-14-2017 05:32 PM
Re: Breaking: Malcolm Butler visiting Saints Thursday!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by |Mitch| (Post 740716)
He had coverge on Odell Beckham, Antonio Brown, T.Y. Hilton, and Emmanuel Sanders in those highlights.

|Mitch| 03-14-2017 05:33 PM
Re: Breaking: Malcolm Butler visiting Saints Thursday!
 

dizzle88 03-14-2017 05:38 PM
Re: Breaking: Malcolm Butler visiting Saints Thursday!
 
Cooks - 23 years old, played 3 seasons

Butler - 27 years old, been in league 2 seasons

If the trade happens we get probably 3 years out of him before he declines, whereas NE will get more than 7-8 years out of Cooks.

AsylumGuido 03-14-2017 05:41 PM
Re: Breaking: Malcolm Butler visiting Saints Thursday!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dizzle88 (Post 740721)
Cooks - 23 years old, played 3 seasons

Butler - 27 years old, been in league 2 seasons

If the trade happens we get probably 3 years out of him before he declines, whereas NE will get more than 7-8 years out of Cooks.
I'll bet you $20 Cooks isn't a Patriot in three years.

|Mitch| 03-14-2017 05:45 PM
Re: Breaking: Malcolm Butler visiting Saints Thursday!
 

lee909 03-14-2017 05:46 PM
Re: Breaking: Malcolm Butler visiting Saints Thursday!
 
I wouldn't be shocked if they use his 5th year option next year,tag him the year after then get a 3rd round comp pick by letting him walk tbe year after. Or not even tagging him and letting him walk


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