Brees is done

AsylumGuido · 11-16-2019, 12:13 PM

Originally Posted by blackangold

The saints are 0-42 when running the ball less than 15 times in a game... Enough said..

This is true, but there is no direct correlation that running the ball less than 15 times was the reason for the loss. Did they lose those 42 games because they didn't run the ball more than 15 times or did they run the ball less than 15 times because they couldn't sustain drives and thus lost the game?

That's exactly the false narrative that I was talking about earlier. According to Pat Kirwan and Jim Miller on NFL Radio, as I pointed previously, it isn't a lack of attempts to run the ball that leads to a loss, it is the inability to run the ball successfully and to extend drives that limits the chances to run the ball.

The Saints have lost 395 games when they DID run the ball 15 or more times. Let that sink in.

AsylumGuido · 11-16-2019, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido

The full play by play log can be found here.

Tell me which plays they should have used a running play and why. Don't forget, running on every single first down is asking for failure especially when it hasn't worked very successfully to that point and the defense is expecting it. Mixing in passes should open up the running game ... IF the receiver doesn't keep dropping the ball. When that happens you are basically forced to throw it again.

Originally Posted by blackangold

The saints are 0-42 when running the ball less than 15 times in a game... Enough said..

Follow the link above to the play by play log and tell me on exactly which downs where the pass was the choice, either initially called or switched to at the line, that running the ball was absolutely the best option.

TheOak · 11-17-2019, 08:43 AM

Originally Posted by blackangold

The saints are 0-42 when running the ball less than 15 times in a game... Enough said..

That is a stat, nothing more or less with zero causation. I will assume that you are assuming two things from that stat..
1. The Saints chose to run less than 15 times in a game?
2. Their choice is causing them to lose?

Here is another stat or two and how I interpret them:
1. Drew Brees is presently tied for second with Tom Brade in all time 4th Qtr come backs at 35 (Payton Manning has 43 and Johnny Unitas has 34).
2. Drew Brees is second only to Payton Manning for game winning drives @49 (Payton Manning is 54 and Dan Marino is 47)

Seems our crappy defenses under Spagnuolo, Ryan, and a few Allen years left the man playing catch up because our wet paper towel Defense couldn't stop a drip. What Fing team runs when behind? Okay, the Jets...

What no one has been able to answer yet is why in the hell didnt we abandon the run against the Cardinals??? Anyone please explain why... take a shot at it with your logic.

blackangold · 11-17-2019, 10:05 AM

The 0-42 stat doesn't provide causation, but it does provide correlation between loses.

Winning teams can do 2 things in the NFL, run the ball and play defense. If you can't do those things your success will be short lived.

I know you all understand that and are arguing that our running game was ineffective so they had to move away from it, however as AG drove into the play by play, you could see our running game was effective but it was abandoned. You don't need 6 yards a carry, 3 yards on first or second down is better than a incomplete pass or sack. We could have been setting up 3rd and short with an aggressive run game, but instead we were behind th chains because we chose to pass and create negative plays (incomplete/sacks/penalties).

If the saints right the ship, it'll be due to establishing the run again.

ChrisXVI · 11-17-2019, 11:16 AM

I said at the tail end of the Bridgewater-starting era that it’s possible we don’t win all of those games with Brees at QB. I didn’t mean it as an insult to Brees in any way, but that unthinkable loss to the Falcons bears that out. We get away from the basics and fundamentals sometimes and the play calling just gets questionable at times with Brees. It’s not Drew’s fault, it’s just symptomatic of the “We have Brees so we’ll be fine” mindset.

TheOak · 11-17-2019, 11:21 AM

Originally Posted by blackangold

The 0-42 stat doesn't provide causation, but it does provide correlation between loses.

Winning teams can do 2 things in the NFL, run the ball and play defense. If you can't do those things your success will be short lived.

I know you all understand that and are arguing that our running game was ineffective so they had to move away from it, however as AG drove into the play by play, you could see our running game was effective but it was abandoned. You don't need 6 yards a carry, 3 yards on first or second down is better than a incomplete pass or sack. We could have been setting up 3rd and short with an aggressive run game, but instead we were behind th chains because we chose to pass and create negative plays (incomplete/sacks/penalties).

If the saints right the ship, it'll be due to establishing the run again.

Brother, absolutely no one that I have seen has argued against the run game being vital. But it wasn't there against Atlanta it was never effective and no one was getting 3 YPC and the Penalties were killing the run game as well often leaving us with more than 10 yards for a 1st down. Do do remember the penalties and have factored them into your 3YPC run game?

6 offensive penalties on 10 drives.... You cant establish a run game on that Sir...

Murry ave 2.6 YPC ill bet you a months salary that if Payton would have run Kamara in place of Murry people would be b1tching about over use...

People are arguing that our QB was killing run plays just to pad stats and that's asinine to say the least. We have some smart members that say stupid sh1t.

Atlanta came in to kill our run game, they were successful because our O-Line was flat. Our passing game was unsuccessful because we dont have more than one receiver and she same line was flat.

AsylumGuido · 11-17-2019, 11:57 AM

Originally Posted by TheOak

Brother, absolutely no one that I have seen has argued against the run game being vital. But it wasn't there against Atlanta it was never effective and no one was getting 3 YPC and the Penalties were killing the run game as well often leaving us with more than 10 yards for a 1st down. Do do remember the penalties and have factored them into your 3YPC run game?

6 offensive penalties on 10 drives.... You cant establish a run game on that Sir...

Murry ave 2.6 YPC ill bet you a months salary that if Payton would have run Kamara in place of Murry people would be b1tching about over use...

People are arguing that our QB was killing run plays just to pad stats and that's asinine to say the least. We have some smart members that say stupid sh1t.

Atlanta came in to kill our run game, they were successful because our O-Line was flat. Our passing game was unsuccessful because we dont have more than one receiver and she same line was flat.

^^^^^^

All of this. But, Oak, it's like talking to a blank wall. They don't understand football as much as they think. Logic means nothing to them. Might as well give up. Forty-two times in the 52 year history of the Saints they did not carry the ball at least 15 times. Outlier, forced by flow of game and defensive scheme.

dizzle88 · 11-17-2019, 01:40 PM

Age is definitely catching up with Brees - the 15-20 yard comebacks are just floating on him. Lucky he wasnt picked.

AsylumGuido · 11-17-2019, 02:48 PM

Originally Posted by dizzle88

Age is definitely catching up with Brees - the 15-20 yard comebacks are just floating on him. Lucky he wasnt picked.

Time to dump him and get someone better.

The Dude · 11-17-2019, 03:37 PM

He did alright. Great team win. Defense definitely made it easier on him.

11-16-2019, 12:13 PM	#151
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 24,394	Re: Brees is done Originally Posted by blackangold The saints are 0-42 when running the ball less than 15 times in a game... Enough said.. This is true, but there is no direct correlation that running the ball less than 15 times was the reason for the loss. Did they lose those 42 games because they didn't run the ball more than 15 times or did they run the ball less than 15 times because they couldn't sustain drives and thus lost the game? That's exactly the false narrative that I was talking about earlier. According to Pat Kirwan and Jim Miller on NFL Radio, as I pointed previously, it isn't a lack of attempts to run the ball that leads to a loss, it is the inability to run the ball successfully and to extend drives that limits the chances to run the ball. The Saints have lost 395 games when they DID run the ball 15 or more times. Let that sink in.
	“The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.” — Winston Churchill

11-16-2019, 12:23 PM	#152
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 24,394	Re: Brees is done Originally Posted by AsylumGuido The full play by play log can be found here. Tell me which plays they should have used a running play and why. Don't forget, running on every single first down is asking for failure especially when it hasn't worked very successfully to that point and the defense is expecting it. Mixing in passes should open up the running game ... IF the receiver doesn't keep dropping the ball. When that happens you are basically forced to throw it again. Originally Posted by blackangold The saints are 0-42 when running the ball less than 15 times in a game... Enough said.. Follow the link above to the play by play log and tell me on exactly which downs where the pass was the choice, either initially called or switched to at the line, that running the ball was absolutely the best option.

11-17-2019, 08:43 AM	#153
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 18,978	Re: Brees is done Originally Posted by blackangold The saints are 0-42 when running the ball less than 15 times in a game... Enough said.. That is a stat, nothing more or less with zero causation. I will assume that you are assuming two things from that stat.. 1. The Saints chose to run less than 15 times in a game? 2. Their choice is causing them to lose? Here is another stat or two and how I interpret them: 1. Drew Brees is presently tied for second with Tom Brade in all time 4th Qtr come backs at 35 (Payton Manning has 43 and Johnny Unitas has 34). 2. Drew Brees is second only to Payton Manning for game winning drives @49 (Payton Manning is 54 and Dan Marino is 47) Seems our crappy defenses under Spagnuolo, Ryan, and a few Allen years left the man playing catch up because our wet paper towel Defense couldn't stop a drip. What Fing team runs when behind? Okay, the Jets... What no one has been able to answer yet is why in the hell didnt we abandon the run against the Cardinals??? Anyone please explain why... take a shot at it with your logic. Danno likes this.
	It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see. ~ Henry David Thoreau

11-17-2019, 10:05 AM	#154
blackangold 1000 Posts + Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 3,422	Re: Brees is done The 0-42 stat doesn't provide causation, but it does provide correlation between loses. Winning teams can do 2 things in the NFL, run the ball and play defense. If you can't do those things your success will be short lived. I know you all understand that and are arguing that our running game was ineffective so they had to move away from it, however as AG drove into the play by play, you could see our running game was effective but it was abandoned. You don't need 6 yards a carry, 3 yards on first or second down is better than a incomplete pass or sack. We could have been setting up 3rd and short with an aggressive run game, but instead we were behind th chains because we chose to pass and create negative plays (incomplete/sacks/penalties). If the saints right the ship, it'll be due to establishing the run again.
	The Saints are 0-42 when running the ball less than 15 times in a game.

11-17-2019, 11:16 AM	#155
ChrisXVI 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 11,482	Re: Brees is done I said at the tail end of the Bridgewater-starting era that it’s possible we don’t win all of those games with Brees at QB. I didn’t mean it as an insult to Brees in any way, but that unthinkable loss to the Falcons bears that out. We get away from the basics and fundamentals sometimes and the play calling just gets questionable at times with Brees. It’s not Drew’s fault, it’s just symptomatic of the “We have Brees so we’ll be fine” mindset.
	"When you get into one of these groups, there's only a couple of ways you can get out. One, is death; the other, is mental institutions."

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11-17-2019, 11:21 AM	#156
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 18,978	Re: Brees is done Originally Posted by blackangold The 0-42 stat doesn't provide causation, but it does provide correlation between loses. Winning teams can do 2 things in the NFL, run the ball and play defense. If you can't do those things your success will be short lived. I know you all understand that and are arguing that our running game was ineffective so they had to move away from it, however as AG drove into the play by play, you could see our running game was effective but it was abandoned. You don't need 6 yards a carry, 3 yards on first or second down is better than a incomplete pass or sack. We could have been setting up 3rd and short with an aggressive run game, but instead we were behind th chains because we chose to pass and create negative plays (incomplete/sacks/penalties). If the saints right the ship, it'll be due to establishing the run again. Brother, absolutely no one that I have seen has argued against the run game being vital. But it wasn't there against Atlanta it was never effective and no one was getting 3 YPC and the Penalties were killing the run game as well often leaving us with more than 10 yards for a 1st down. Do do remember the penalties and have factored them into your 3YPC run game? 6 offensive penalties on 10 drives.... You cant establish a run game on that Sir... Murry ave 2.6 YPC ill bet you a months salary that if Payton would have run Kamara in place of Murry people would be b1tching about over use... People are arguing that our QB was killing run plays just to pad stats and that's asinine to say the least. We have some smart members that say stupid sh1t. Atlanta came in to kill our run game, they were successful because our O-Line was flat. Our passing game was unsuccessful because we dont have more than one receiver and she same line was flat. AsylumGuido likes this.
	It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see. ~ Henry David Thoreau

11-17-2019, 11:57 AM	#157
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 24,394	Re: Brees is done Originally Posted by TheOak Brother, absolutely no one that I have seen has argued against the run game being vital. But it wasn't there against Atlanta it was never effective and no one was getting 3 YPC and the Penalties were killing the run game as well often leaving us with more than 10 yards for a 1st down. Do do remember the penalties and have factored them into your 3YPC run game? 6 offensive penalties on 10 drives.... You cant establish a run game on that Sir... Murry ave 2.6 YPC ill bet you a months salary that if Payton would have run Kamara in place of Murry people would be b1tching about over use... People are arguing that our QB was killing run plays just to pad stats and that's asinine to say the least. We have some smart members that say stupid sh1t. Atlanta came in to kill our run game, they were successful because our O-Line was flat. Our passing game was unsuccessful because we dont have more than one receiver and she same line was flat. ^^^^^^ All of this. But, Oak, it's like talking to a blank wall. They don't understand football as much as they think. Logic means nothing to them. Might as well give up. Forty-two times in the 52 year history of the Saints they did not carry the ball at least 15 times. Outlier, forced by flow of game and defensive scheme.

11-17-2019, 01:40 PM	#158
dizzle88 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 10,838	Re: Brees is done Age is definitely catching up with Brees - the 15-20 yard comebacks are just floating on him. Lucky he wasnt picked.

11-17-2019, 02:48 PM	#159
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 24,394	Re: Brees is done Originally Posted by dizzle88 Age is definitely catching up with Brees - the 15-20 yard comebacks are just floating on him. Lucky he wasnt picked. Time to dump him and get someone better.

11-17-2019, 03:37 PM	#160
The Dude 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 9,006	Re: Brees is done He did alright. Great team win. Defense definitely made it easier on him.
The Dude 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 9,006