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Pay Brees!

this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; Originally Posted by AsylumGuido In case you didn't know, Brees' agent is the same one that represents Peyton Manning. If I'm not mistaken, Condon did not broker an extension twice for Manning, but did re-sign following the final season of ...

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Old 08-14-2016, 07:21 PM   #61
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Re: Pay Brees!

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido View Post
In case you didn't know, Brees' agent is the same one that represents Peyton Manning. If I'm not mistaken, Condon did not broker an extension twice for Manning, but did re-sign following the final season of the contract. In fact, that is how most deals work. Extensions are the exception. Yes, it would make fans like us all warm and fuzzy, but isn't necessary. SFIAH has it nailed. The cap is no longer an issue and I can't understand why people get so hung up on what players get paid. in addition, you cannot compare what an NFL QB gets paid to what people in regular jobs get paid. How many assistant managers are the in the world working at McDonalds? How many second grade math teachers are there in the world? How many car salespeople are there in the world? There are only thirty-two NFL starting QB's in the world. The NFL mandates that a vast majority of the cap has to be spent. They are not overpaid ... at all.
To expand on point: there are 32 starting QBs and only about 12 of them are really good. That's why there is the continual drafting of top flight QB talent every year. And that's why most of the talent doesn't pan out.

Think that 18 years ago there was really a discussion of Peyton Manning vs. Ryan Leaf. Or the fact that Brees was drafted in the 2nd round in the same draft that Vick was drafted #1. Very few people can do this job well.

SFIAH
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Old 08-14-2016, 07:59 PM   #62
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Re: Pay Brees!

Originally Posted by halloween 65 View Post
I believe if we don't have a deep, deep playoff run with Brees under C this season then he's not going to be here next season. Another 7-9 or even a 9-7 isn't going to cut it. Could be the FO is waiting to see how things go.
Originally Posted by 44Champs View Post
Please expound on your point as to why that would be. Brees isnt the reason why we didnt make the playoffs and had back to back 7-9 seasons. He's the reason why we're still a contender every year.
I agree with 44Champs here.

And a point I'm going to keep pounding until folks actually start listening:

AFTER THIS SEASON, DREW BREES IS A FREE AGENT!

He will no longer be under contract with the Saints. The Saints will have to bid with the proverbial other 31 teams in the NFL for his services.

There is no waiting to evaluate. After the season the only options the Saints have is to bid for Brees on the open market, or to franchise for 2017 for $43 million.

BTW you already have that evaluation. The Saints defenses in 2014 and 2015 were by some measures the worst in NFL history. 7 wins in that situation is frankly a miracle.

As someone else pointed out in this thread, it seems that quite a few folks are putting forward what they would like to see happen. But those wants/beliefs don't match the reality of the situation. There seems to be this pervasive fear that Brees is suddenly not going to be a HOF caliber QB in the elite category of today's NFL.

SFIAH

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Old 08-14-2016, 08:32 PM   #63
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Re: Pay Brees!

Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL View Post
I agree with 44Champs here.

And a point I'm going to keep pounding until folks actually start listening:

AFTER THIS SEASON, DREW BREES IS A FREE AGENT!

He will no longer be under contract with the Saints. The Saints will have to bid with the proverbial other 31 teams in the NFL for his services.

There is no waiting to evaluate. After the season the only options the Saints have is to bid for Brees on the open market, or to franchise for 2017 for $43 million.

BTW you already have that evaluation. The Saints defenses in 2014 and 2015 were by some measures the worst in NFL history. 7 wins in that situation is frankly a miracle.

As someone else pointed out in this thread, it seems that quite a few folks are putting forward what they would like to see happen. But those wants/beliefs don't match the reality of the situation. There seems to be this pervasive fear that Brees is suddenly not going to be a HOF caliber QB in the elite category of today's NFL.

SFIAH
I get he's going to be a FA. A 38 1/2 yr. old FA at seasons end at that. I just don't believe he's going to be able to play at the level he played at last season at 41 or 42 yrs. old. Also I feel he is a HOF qb but to lay out a huge contract at that age is putting all your money into assuming he will be playing at this level that long, to dicey in my opionion. I think the Saints have put themselves in a predicament with this.
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Old 08-14-2016, 10:44 PM   #64
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Re: Pay Brees!

Originally Posted by halloween 65 View Post
I get he's going to be a FA. A 38 1/2 yr. old FA at seasons end at that.
Once you get that then it's easy to see that the time for evaluation is over for the Saints. They have to fish or cut bait with the information they currently have because if a deal doesn't get done in the next month, then he will be a free agent next offseason.
I just don't believe he's going to be able to play at the level he played at last season at 41 or 42 yrs. old. Also I feel he is a HOF qb but to lay out a huge contract at that age is putting all your money into assuming he will be playing at this level that long, to dicey in my opionion. I think the Saints have put themselves in a predicament with this.
It is the same predicament that each and every team with a high quality QB goes through. It gets even more difficult with the heir apparent has shown they are ready. There was drama with Young and Montana. There was drama with Farve and Rodgers. I predict there will be drama in the near future with Brady and Grappalo.

But it seems clear there is no Rodgers waiting in the wings on the Saints roster. Unlike Denver, it's not clear that the Saints have the defense to start from scratch at the QB position and still remain competitive in the near future.

And the simple fact is there is no real evidence of how Brees may perform 3 years from now.

Let's try a different tack here. Everyone has outlined their fears and issues. Explain what outcomes you would like to see given the circumstances. I do ask to keep everything within the realm of NFL reality. That means no Brees accepting a 2 year $40 million contracts offered at the end of the 2016 season. By any objective measure it is completely nonsensical.

Do we get someone younger and pay them the money for extended years? If so, who? Do we draft a new QB? If so who and when? Do we pay Brees? If so, how much and how long.

I agree it's a predicament. My estimation is simple. I presume the Saints want to make another championship run in the next 3 years. If that's the case it can likely only be done with Brees on board. So we pay him the smallest market contract that he'll accept. Start at 3 years/$75 million all guaranteed and work your way up from there.

That's my opinion. What's yours?

SFIAH
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Old 08-14-2016, 11:06 PM   #65
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Re: Pay Brees!

Originally Posted by spkb25 View Post
I just want to make sure and point out that there are 32 teams with like 60 players each so that means that there are roughly 2,000 people in the entire world that can play in the NFL. Show me another job where only 2000 people in the entire world can do it. By the way, being one of those 2000 means you work very hard. So you decide which jobs deserve which money...I see, you're the smartest guy in the room and you will decide verse say the marketplace.
In no way do I pretend to be the smartest guy in the room. You are basing your argument on market value within the league. That's the only reason players make the kind of money they make. What part of the word "important" did you not understand? You and others are using the lame "you're worth whatever someone wants to pay you" logic. I'm not begrudging Brees for the money he makes, despite the fact that I think his contract has been an albatross, and it would be nice if he could make a few concessions. Some players do that, and some don't.

But my point has nothing to do with market value. I said that nothing these players do is as important as some of the other jobs out there.

Just so YOU know, Millions of people through the years have fought and died, and made peanuts in the process, so that you and those who agree with you can sit here and have the lame opinion that football players are more important because there are fewer of them.

Chew on that for a minute, smart guy.

My whole point was that nobody "owes" Drew anything. If they want to pay him whatever he wants, that's them. If they don't, and he leaves, oh well. People keep talking like it would be disrespectful to him to ask him to take a little less than he could get elsewhere. It's up to Drew if he'd be willing to do that, but I'll stand by the Saints on this one, if they set a limit on what they are willing to pay. I don't know how it's going to play out in the end. I'm simply giving my opinion. Unlike some of you who have thought all off-season that you knew what was coming. That kind of crap is what deserves the "smartest guy in the room" comment.

If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, the NFL would fine and suspend me.
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Old 08-14-2016, 11:15 PM   #66
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Re: Pay Brees!

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido View Post
After all of that there is the one major fact that you are missing out on. Brees' age has NOTHING to do with his value. As long as he is producing as good as any 25 year old in the league why shouldn't he be paid like one? Hell, he is better than EVERY 25 year old in the league and has shown no indication that he will not still be out-performing them three or four years from now.
Because when you're getting old and getting beat up (we already know he can't throw as far as he used to, and there is no way in predicting how quickly his arm strength may continue to diminish) it's difficult to project forward like you can with a younger player. Did you see Peyton Manning last year? He went from breaking the single season passing yards and TD's record one year, to being maybe half that guy the next year, to being one of the worst QB's in the league last year. That big contract he signed seemed all fine and dandy two years ago. And then, suddenly, it wasn't anymore.

I'll wait for your sarcastic attempt to dance around that one.

If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, the NFL would fine and suspend me.
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Old 08-15-2016, 12:57 AM   #67
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Re: Pay Brees!

Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL View Post
I know there are other responses that match this. I thought I had posted this before I left out. Posting anyway.



That coupled with the available pool of money is what defined the market.


I disagree about "earned". The value of any good or service is strictly defined by what people are willing to pay for it. It's the reason that the highest paid employee in virtually every state government is the high-profile football coach.

Brees does a job in a nearly $14 billion a year market that has less than 10,000 employees at a level that less than 5 people on this planet can do. Now is it fair that the NFL has that market size? Probably not. But has Brees earned his share of the market? Absolutely.

And you are asking the correct question. You have a guy that is far outproducing all the 25 year olds that are getting paid more than he is. The desperate teams in the market will pay to get the type of stability we've had at the QB position for the last decade.


So that's the value choice that each and every GM has to make. The system is set up with cost controls for the first 5 years of the contract after the draft and an open market afterwords. Players who are extremely productive before free agency build a potential value that can be tapped on the second contract. Teams always make the value proposition that the production will continue and match the value of the dollars. Sometimes it works (Brees, Jordan, Ingram) and sometimes it doesn't (Byrd, Gallette, up until now Spiller). And the Saints will have make more of these choices in the future (Cooks, Breaux). And sometimes I think the team just takes a flyer where the value of the contract doesn't match the previous production and there is a hope that the future production will in fact pan out. As of today I put Fleener in that category.

Deferring the money is the teams hedge against bad decisions in theory. All organizations are only on the hook for guaranteed money. So pushing a chunk of money in the future allows for further evaluation into the next contract as to make decision of whether to continue to pay or not.

It has to be balanced against players wanting their money up front. The NFL is the only pro league that has deferred non guaranteed contracts. When Lebron signed his 3 year $100 million contract this month, he's going to get that money whether or not he ever steps foot on the court for Cleveland ever again. It's all guaranteed. You can see the failures of that model with Kobe as an example. His last contract paid him I believe $24 million/year over a number of years, many of which he simply did not play. That contract in the NFL would be structured as up front guaranteed money, bonus payments contingent on being on the team, and unguaranteed salary, which simply isn't paid when the player is cut.

We'll see a sample of this with Byrd next year. He'll either restructure, or he will be cut because it'll cost the team more to keep him than to cut him.

But at the end of the day, this is the chess match of the NFL. Teams like the Patriots tend to cut most of their high profile people the year before they come into big money and continue their success with getting and developing young talent. Other clubs are a continual string of poor choices. The Saints have been hit and miss. But understand it's rare that someone becomes a Hall of Famer with their second or third club. Brees has been nothing but money since 2006. So my opinion is that the title of this thread is absolutely correct.

SFIAH
I feel like a broken record having to say this over and over. And before I continue, let me make sure you understand that this is not meant to be condescending towards you. You are making a point based strictly on market value, of which I fully understand how it works. I'm arguing against the opinion that he is necessarily worth, or owed market value. We disagree on that, and that's fine. But the real disconnect here, is that you are going the long way of explaining the market, when that isn't real the point here. You should be worth what your performance states you are worth in comparison to the other players' salaries. He's worth being paid as one of the best, but he's not THE best. And without knowing for sure, I feel pretty confident that's what his agent is trying to get him paid like. That's the agent's job.

He might be out performing 25 year old's now but for how long? And I think a lot of fans are over estimating his performance. He throws a ton of passes, and has been quite turnover prone in recent years. Points per game are well down. Not all of that is his fault as he has taken a beating. He's still a top QB, but is he top 5 in terms of efficiency? I'm, not so sure, and it's the beating he keeps taking that makes me worry about his future. The line needed to be addressed. It was not. That needs to be addressed, in my opinion, before dealing out another mega contract.

Again, in terms in terms of market value, I don't think any team should be held hostage by whatever the going rate is. It should be based on performance vs. peers. Instead it has become a quagmire of average QB's making tons of money just because they wanted a shiner toy than the other guy got. It's ridiculous. And I blame the irresponsibility of the GM's who have helped create this nightmare. Drew deserves to be paid exactly what his performance suggests. When they gave him that last contract, he was the highest paid player. He's been up and down over the duration of that deal. So did he earn it? Not really, but he did GET that money. We all know with the way the market plays, that he will probably become the highest paid player in the league again, until someone passes him up 5 minutes later. Is he worth highest paid player when he hasn't been the best QB in the league? In reality, no. But will the Saints pay up anyway? We'll see.

Or maybe, just maybe, they can settle somewhere in the middle. I have no idea. I'm just tired of hearing things like "we were nothing before he got here, so he deserves whatever he wants". People find this mean spirited when I say this, perhaps, but it's just life. You don't pay a guy whatever he wants just because of what he's meant. You have to pay him based on what you think he can do going forward. I hope he can stay at this level for another 4 or 5 years. Or even more. But I'm reacting to all the panicking about Drew by fans who seem to think that there can never be life beyond him, and that the Saints should just cave in.

I know our other QB's aren't real good. But maybe that's an indictment on this team's ability to prepare for the future. Somehow the Patriots won 11 games with Matt freaking Cassel. Matt Flynn one threw 6 touchdowns in place of Aaron Rodgers. Good teams can't make excuses, and they can't afford to get desperate. They should be prepared.

If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, the NFL would fine and suspend me.
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Old 08-15-2016, 01:00 AM   #68
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Re: Pay Brees!

Originally Posted by burningmetal View Post
Because when you're getting old and getting beat up (we already know he can't throw as far as he used to, and there is no way in predicting how quickly his arm strength may continue to diminish) it's difficult to project forward like you can with a younger player. Did you see Peyton Manning last year? He went from breaking the single season passing yards and TD's record one year, to being maybe half that guy the next year, to being one of the worst QB's in the league last year. That big contract he signed seemed all fine and dandy two years ago. And then, suddenly, it wasn't anymore.

I'll wait for your sarcastic attempt to dance around that one.
There's no need to dance around it. A decline is a possibility. But you can only make the current decision with the available information. Brees was 15 games, 4800+ yards, 32 TDs for the #1 passing offense in football in 2015. He's 37 years old. That's the available information.

So you don't pull the trigger on Brees. What do you suggest the Saints do then? Take a look here at available free agent QBs for 2017:

2017 NFL Free Agents Tracker | Spotrac

You can forget about Cousins. If he has another year like 2015 Washington will tag him a second time as an exclusive franchise player then work to back up the money truck to Cousins house.

So what's the game plan if you let Brees go. There's no Rodgers or Luck waiting in the wings. The last guy that moved and playing at an elite level is Carson Palmer. But he was injured in Cincinnati.

I know that it feels like Guido and I are stating the obvious. But there simply do not seem to be any better options than Brees in the short term and the market is what it is.

Someone please show me what I'm missing. And I'm not missing the fact that Brees will be over 40 by the time he ends his next contract.

SFIAH

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Old 08-15-2016, 01:06 AM   #69
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Re: Pay Brees!

Originally Posted by burningmetal View Post
In no way do I pretend to be the smartest guy in the room. You are basing your argument on market value within the league. That's the only reason players make the kind of money they make. What part of the word "important" did you not understand? You and others are using the lame "you're worth whatever someone wants to pay you" logic. I'm not begrudging Brees for the money he makes, despite the fact that I think his contract has been an albatross, and it would be nice if he could make a few concessions. Some players do that, and some don't.

But my point has nothing to do with market value. I said that nothing these players do is as important as some of the other jobs out there.

Just so YOU know, Millions of people through the years have fought and died, and made peanuts in the process, so that you and those who agree with you can sit here and have the lame opinion that football players are more important because there are fewer of them.

Chew on that for a minute, smart guy.

My whole point was that nobody "owes" Drew anything. If they want to pay him whatever he wants, that's them. If they don't, and he leaves, oh well. People keep talking like it would be disrespectful to him to ask him to take a little less than he could get elsewhere. It's up to Drew if he'd be willing to do that, but I'll stand by the Saints on this one, if they set a limit on what they are willing to pay. I don't know how it's going to play out in the end. I'm simply giving my opinion. Unlike some of you who have thought all off-season that you knew what was coming. That kind of crap is what deserves the "smartest guy in the room" comment.
This is why you're an absolute idiot...important has nothing to do with it. It is all about what someone is willing to pay you. Whether you like that or agree with that is utterly irrelevant. When you purchase a team you can spend your money how you choose, but since you do not own the Saints you have literally no say in how they conduct their business.

Next, people choose to spend money on the Saints. It is their choice and you or I have absolutely no ability to dictate to others how they spend their money. That is the reason that Drew can be paid this amount of money because people choose to purchase the product.

You discussing importance is asinine. People aren't paid by their importance, they're paid per their market value because the business earner determines what their value is based off of what they can do for them.

It is like you exist in some Utopian wet ****ing dream instead of reality

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Old 08-15-2016, 01:21 AM   #70
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Re: Pay Brees!

Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL View Post
There's no need to dance around it. A decline is a possibility. But you can only make the current decision with the available information. Brees was 15 games, 4800+ yards, 32 TDs for the #1 passing offense in football in 2015. He's 37 years old. That's the available information.

So you don't pull the trigger on Brees. What do you suggest the Saints do then? Take a look here at available free agent QBs for 2017:

2017 NFL Free Agents Tracker | Spotrac

You can forget about Cousins. If he has another year like 2015 Washington will tag him a second time as an exclusive franchise player then work to back up the money truck to Cousins house.

So what's the game plan if you let Brees go. There's no Rodgers or Luck waiting in the wings. The last guy that moved and playing at an elite level is Carson Palmer. But he was injured in Cincinnati.

I know that it feels like Guido and I are stating the obvious. But there simply do not seem to be any better options than Brees in the short term and the market is what it is.

Someone please show me what I'm missing. And I'm not missing the fact that Brees will be over 40 by the time he ends his next contract.

SFIAH
I would rather not see it come to the point of Drew leaving. I think that's pretty obvious that we don't want that. But if this coaching staff and front office can't properly prepare for life after Drew then maybe we should be discussing THIER worth. Tom Brady sure wasn't a great college QB, but they developed him, and as I mentioned before, they won even without him. I look at the Ravens and see that they won two super bowls with Trent Dilfer and Joe Flacco. I think back to last year when Peyton Manning resembled Danny Wuerfful, and his team still won the Superbowl. There are other ways of winning. Allocate money wherever you have to in order to be successful, and more importantly, have the ability to develop players within your system.

Throwing for 48,000 yards doesn't mean what it used to. Again, he's still very good, but when you throw as much as the Saints do, you will have yards. They finished middle of the pack in points per game. And as long as we're paying Drew the kind of money people say he's worth, then that's not going to cut it. He needs some help. I have high hopes for the young guys on defense, but I can't say the same for the people who are in charge of keeping him conscious, up front.

If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, the NFL would fine and suspend me.
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