Observations from the Saints' Win over the Patriots

jeanpierre · 09-28-2021, 04:57 PM

How many games did an old, dead-armed Drew get to play with Michael Thomas last year?

Lord_Saint83 · 09-28-2021, 05:02 PM

Originally Posted by jeanpierre

How many games did an old, dead-armed Drew get to play with Michael Thomas last year?

He played in 7 games but he still had Emmanuel Sanders and Jared Cook. Those guys are better than what we got now

jeanpierre · 09-28-2021, 05:27 PM

Originally Posted by Lord_Saint83

He played in 7 games but he still had Emmanuel Sanders and Jared Cook. Those guys are better than what we got now

But how many games did Drew get to play with Thomas? Taysom got four of them even if Thomas wasn't 100%...

And we were all remarking that Brees wasn't able to air it out to Sanders. Cook only made a catch when defenses weren't respecting Cook, and then he'd fumble...

So really, was the WR position that much better last season?

We've got Stills now, so what's it gonna take to get him acclimated, included in the offensive game plan?

Lord_Saint83 · 09-28-2021, 05:51 PM

Originally Posted by jeanpierre

But how many games did Drew get to play with Thomas? Taysom got four of them even if Thomas wasn't 100%...

And we were all remarking that Brees wasn't able to air it out to Sanders. Cook only made a catch when defenses weren't respecting Cook, and then he'd fumble...

So really, was the WR position that much better last season?

We've got Stills now, so what's it gonna take to get him acclimated, included in the offensive game plan?

Yea around 3 games. They used Sanders for the short and intermediate game when MT was out. It worked sorta but they weren’t playing to Sanders strengths which is stretching the field. Thomas wasn't 100% no doubt and he still lead the team in receptions and yards during Taysom’s start. Cook in all honesty was solid/good just that when he screwed up it was at the worst time. Since we don’t have much cash we gotta hope our homegrown talent will pan out in time as they get experience, mostly talking about Callaway. And it might take Stills a couple weeks to learn a good chunk of the playbook so he can be out there more often. I’m sure this is the defense approach to Roby as well

Boston Saint · 09-28-2021, 05:54 PM

Originally Posted by jeanpierre

But how many games did Drew get to play with Thomas? Taysom got four of them even if Thomas wasn't 100%...

And we were all remarking that Brees wasn't able to air it out to Sanders. Cook only made a catch when defenses weren't respecting Cook, and then he'd fumble...

So really, was the WR position that much better last season?

We've got Stills now, so what's it gonna take to get him acclimated, included in the offensive game plan?

Keep in mind as well that Winston hasn’t exactly had the same chance to play and learn with the starters on the team as other QBs normally have. Weak armed Drew in his final season had many previous years to work with the coaches, line, backs, and some of the WRs and TEs. Winston had a COVID preseason as a backup last year, then a training camp/pre-season splitting time with Hill taking snaps with the first string players this year. He’s still learning a new system with new players.

The Dude · 09-28-2021, 06:43 PM

Originally Posted by Boston Saint

Keep in mind as well that Winston hasn’t exactly had the same chance to play and learn with the starters on the team as other QBs normally have. Weak armed Drew in his final season had many previous years to work with the coaches, line, backs, and some of the WRs and TEs. Winston had a COVID preseason as a backup last year, then a training camp/pre-season splitting time with Hill taking snaps with the first string players this year. He’s still learning a new system with new players.

Doesn’t look like Stafford is having much of a problem getting acclimated over in LA. Plenty of veteran Qb’s have stepped right in on a new team and had success. Most without a coach like Payton, a HOF qb, and a year to study the system (COVID or not). The fact Winston has been here as long as he has should be a benefit him, not hinder him. He should know the system by now.
Still think Winston is our best option but I don’t see him as a long term solution.

K Major · 09-28-2021, 05:56 PM

JP -

Would you rather have Thomas, Cook, Sanders & Smith in your arsenal or ...

Hogan, Humphrey, Lil Jordan & Juwan ? Give me last year's group all day.
JW doesn't have much to work with at the moment but I do like the pick up of Stills.

Next year, drafting a WR within the first 2 rounds should be a priority. Hindsight is 20/20 but I never liked the Ruiz pick. Claypool, Brandon Aiyuk & Van Jefferson were available to us. All I see them doing is catching passes and moving the chains.

Lord_Saint83 · 09-28-2021, 06:19 PM

Originally Posted by K Major

JP -

Would you rather have Thomas, Cook, Sanders & Smith in your arsenal or ...

Hogan, Humphrey, Lil Jordan & Juwan ? Give me last year's group all day.
JW doesn't have much to work with at the moment but I do like the pick up of Stills.

Next year, drafting a WR within the first 2 rounds should be a priority. Hindsight is 20/20 but I never liked the Ruiz pick. Claypool, Brandon Aiyuk & Van Jefferson were available to us. All I see them doing is catching passes and moving the chains.

I wasn’t sold on Ruiz either but not to the level like when they drafted Peat. As soon as they said his name I was like oh lord. But I wanted Patrick Queen when we got Ruiz, lol.

jeanpierre · 09-29-2021, 12:59 AM

Originally Posted by K Major

JP -

Would you rather have Thomas, Cook, Sanders & Smith in your arsenal or ...

Hogan, Humphrey, Lil Jordan & Juwan ? Give me last year's group all day.
JW doesn't have much to work with at the moment but I do like the pick up of Stills.

Next year, drafting a WR within the first 2 rounds should be a priority. Hindsight is 20/20 but I never liked the Ruiz pick. Claypool, Brandon Aiyuk & Van Jefferson were available to us. All I see them doing is catching passes and moving the chains.

If Mike returns healthy we should have a three WR set WRx Thomas/Callaway, WRz Harris/Stills, WRs Montgomery/Hogan, that's not too shabby...

Just seems like for Team Winston, there's always another reason 'round the corner to make excuses for Jameis' ineffectiveness this season...

Packers game was an outlier, and now that teams have that film, there's nothing demonstrating a consistent ability to methodically work downfield...

Brees, for all intent and purpose did it with far less; he really didn't have a healthy Thomas at all; could only get Sanders the ball on back shoulder, curls...

Say what you want about Cook, but he disappeared because he's overrated and only made big catches like Tre'Quan - because he was unguarded...

Reality is this, it's still early this season for Winston, we should have a better picture by the BYE, but we have five years of film on Winston's processing inability in the pocket...

Bigger Question - if Sean could take a reconstructed-shouldered Brees, make him the NFL's All-Time Passer, why are the brakes being pumped on a more talented Winston?

But I let the Winston apologists keep making their arguments, but eventually they'll wear out or run out of excuses until he gets it or Payton comes to Arians' conclusion...

Boston Saint · 09-29-2021, 06:25 AM

Originally Posted by jeanpierre

If Mike returns healthy we should have a three WR set WRx Thomas/Callaway, WRz Harris/Stills, WRs Montgomery/Hogan, that's not too shabby...

Just seems like for Team Winston, there's always another reason 'round the corner to make excuses for Jameis' ineffectiveness this season...

Packers game was an outlier, and now that teams have that film, there's nothing demonstrating a consistent ability to methodically work downfield...

Brees, for all intent and purpose did it with far less; he really didn't have a healthy Thomas at all; could only get Sanders the ball on back shoulder, curls...

Say what you want about Cook, but he disappeared because he's overrated and only made big catches like Tre'Quan - because he was unguarded...

Reality is this, it's still early this season for Winston, we should have a better picture by the BYE, but we have five years of film on Winston's processing inability in the pocket...

Bigger Question - if Sean could take a reconstructed-shouldered Brees, make him the NFL's All-Time Passer, why are the brakes being pumped on a more talented Winston?

But I let the Winston apologists keep making their arguments, but eventually they'll wear out or run out of excuses until he gets it or Payton comes to Arians' conclusion...

Let’s look at some numbers. In 2006, his first year as starter with the team, Brees through his first three games had:

3 TDs
2 Int
7.2 yards/attempt
team 25.3 ppg
Horn, Colston, Moore, Henderson, Bush, Deuce as offensive weapons.
4 pre-season games to work with the first team starters.
0 games where team was displaced by Hurricane
0 coaches missing for Covid protocol.

Winston in his first 3 starts for the Saints has:

7 TDs
2 Ints
6.1 Y/A
24.3 ppg
Kamara...and a bunch of guys less talented than Brees had.
1 preseason game working with starters.
3 games team displaced by Hurricane.
5 coaches at least missed from Covid protocols.

Now, you can call someone pointing out these facts as being an apologist if it makes you feel better. I call it being a realist. I also don’t see the comparative “ineffectiveness” you are complaining about. Payton had two seasons watching Winston and I don’t think he would make him his starter if he had doubts about his ability to pass the ball downfield. But, as you say, time will tell.

09-28-2021, 04:57 PM	#1
jeanpierre Site Donor 2018 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Thibodaux Posts: 43,543 Blog Entries: 39	Re: Observations from the Saints' Win over the Patriots How many games did an old, dead-armed Drew get to play with Michael Thomas last year?

09-28-2021, 05:02 PM	#2
Lord_Saint83 100% Blunt Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Saint Gabriel, La Posts: 2,754	Re: Observations from the Saints' Win over the Patriots Originally Posted by jeanpierre How many games did an old, dead-armed Drew get to play with Michael Thomas last year? He played in 7 games but he still had Emmanuel Sanders and Jared Cook. Those guys are better than what we got now WW_Who_Dat, K Major and Boston Saint like this.

09-28-2021, 05:27 PM	#3
jeanpierre Site Donor 2018 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Thibodaux Posts: 43,543 Blog Entries: 39	Re: Observations from the Saints' Win over the Patriots Originally Posted by Lord_Saint83 He played in 7 games but he still had Emmanuel Sanders and Jared Cook. Those guys are better than what we got now But how many games did Drew get to play with Thomas? Taysom got four of them even if Thomas wasn't 100%... And we were all remarking that Brees wasn't able to air it out to Sanders. Cook only made a catch when defenses weren't respecting Cook, and then he'd fumble... So really, was the WR position that much better last season? We've got Stills now, so what's it gonna take to get him acclimated, included in the offensive game plan? jnormand and SmashMouth like this.

09-28-2021, 05:51 PM	#4
Lord_Saint83 100% Blunt Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Saint Gabriel, La Posts: 2,754	Re: Observations from the Saints' Win over the Patriots Originally Posted by jeanpierre But how many games did Drew get to play with Thomas? Taysom got four of them even if Thomas wasn't 100%... And we were all remarking that Brees wasn't able to air it out to Sanders. Cook only made a catch when defenses weren't respecting Cook, and then he'd fumble... So really, was the WR position that much better last season? We've got Stills now, so what's it gonna take to get him acclimated, included in the offensive game plan? Yea around 3 games. They used Sanders for the short and intermediate game when MT was out. It worked sorta but they weren’t playing to Sanders strengths which is stretching the field. Thomas wasn't 100% no doubt and he still lead the team in receptions and yards during Taysom’s start. Cook in all honesty was solid/good just that when he screwed up it was at the worst time. Since we don’t have much cash we gotta hope our homegrown talent will pan out in time as they get experience, mostly talking about Callaway. And it might take Stills a couple weeks to learn a good chunk of the playbook so he can be out there more often. I’m sure this is the defense approach to Roby as well
	Sometimes… You have to crush your enemies where they live!!!

09-28-2021, 05:54 PM	#5
Boston Saint 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Nov 2020 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 5,137	Re: Observations from the Saints' Win over the Patriots Originally Posted by jeanpierre But how many games did Drew get to play with Thomas? Taysom got four of them even if Thomas wasn't 100%... And we were all remarking that Brees wasn't able to air it out to Sanders. Cook only made a catch when defenses weren't respecting Cook, and then he'd fumble... So really, was the WR position that much better last season? We've got Stills now, so what's it gonna take to get him acclimated, included in the offensive game plan? Keep in mind as well that Winston hasn’t exactly had the same chance to play and learn with the starters on the team as other QBs normally have. Weak armed Drew in his final season had many previous years to work with the coaches, line, backs, and some of the WRs and TEs. Winston had a COVID preseason as a backup last year, then a training camp/pre-season splitting time with Hill taking snaps with the first string players this year. He’s still learning a new system with new players.

09-28-2021, 06:43 PM	#6
The Dude 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 9,055	Re: Observations from the Saints' Win over the Patriots Originally Posted by Boston Saint Keep in mind as well that Winston hasn’t exactly had the same chance to play and learn with the starters on the team as other QBs normally have. Weak armed Drew in his final season had many previous years to work with the coaches, line, backs, and some of the WRs and TEs. Winston had a COVID preseason as a backup last year, then a training camp/pre-season splitting time with Hill taking snaps with the first string players this year. He’s still learning a new system with new players. Doesn’t look like Stafford is having much of a problem getting acclimated over in LA. Plenty of veteran Qb’s have stepped right in on a new team and had success. Most without a coach like Payton, a HOF qb, and a year to study the system (COVID or not). The fact Winston has been here as long as he has should be a benefit him, not hinder him. He should know the system by now. Still think Winston is our best option but I don’t see him as a long term solution. jnormand likes this.
The Dude 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 9,055

09-28-2021, 05:56 PM	#7
K Major Site Donor 2019 Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Bedford, TX Posts: 24,738 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Observations from the Saints' Win over the Patriots JP - Would you rather have Thomas, Cook, Sanders & Smith in your arsenal or ... Hogan, Humphrey, Lil Jordan & Juwan ? Give me last year's group all day. JW doesn't have much to work with at the moment but I do like the pick up of Stills. Next year, drafting a WR within the first 2 rounds should be a priority. Hindsight is 20/20 but I never liked the Ruiz pick. Claypool, Brandon Aiyuk & Van Jefferson were available to us. All I see them doing is catching passes and moving the chains. jnormand, Lord_Saint83 and Boston Saint like this.

09-28-2021, 06:19 PM	#8
Lord_Saint83 100% Blunt Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Saint Gabriel, La Posts: 2,754	Re: Observations from the Saints' Win over the Patriots Originally Posted by K Major JP - Would you rather have Thomas, Cook, Sanders & Smith in your arsenal or ... Hogan, Humphrey, Lil Jordan & Juwan ? Give me last year's group all day. JW doesn't have much to work with at the moment but I do like the pick up of Stills. Next year, drafting a WR within the first 2 rounds should be a priority. Hindsight is 20/20 but I never liked the Ruiz pick. Claypool, Brandon Aiyuk & Van Jefferson were available to us. All I see them doing is catching passes and moving the chains. I wasn’t sold on Ruiz either but not to the level like when they drafted Peat. As soon as they said his name I was like oh lord. But I wanted Patrick Queen when we got Ruiz, lol. jnormand likes this.

09-29-2021, 12:59 AM	#9
jeanpierre Site Donor 2018 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Thibodaux Posts: 43,543 Blog Entries: 39	Re: Observations from the Saints' Win over the Patriots Originally Posted by K Major JP - Would you rather have Thomas, Cook, Sanders & Smith in your arsenal or ... Hogan, Humphrey, Lil Jordan & Juwan ? Give me last year's group all day. JW doesn't have much to work with at the moment but I do like the pick up of Stills. Next year, drafting a WR within the first 2 rounds should be a priority. Hindsight is 20/20 but I never liked the Ruiz pick. Claypool, Brandon Aiyuk & Van Jefferson were available to us. All I see them doing is catching passes and moving the chains. If Mike returns healthy we should have a three WR set WRx Thomas/Callaway, WRz Harris/Stills, WRs Montgomery/Hogan, that's not too shabby... Just seems like for Team Winston, there's always another reason 'round the corner to make excuses for Jameis' ineffectiveness this season... Packers game was an outlier, and now that teams have that film, there's nothing demonstrating a consistent ability to methodically work downfield... Brees, for all intent and purpose did it with far less; he really didn't have a healthy Thomas at all; could only get Sanders the ball on back shoulder, curls... Say what you want about Cook, but he disappeared because he's overrated and only made big catches like Tre'Quan - because he was unguarded... Reality is this, it's still early this season for Winston, we should have a better picture by the BYE, but we have five years of film on Winston's processing inability in the pocket... Bigger Question - if Sean could take a reconstructed-shouldered Brees, make him the NFL's All-Time Passer, why are the brakes being pumped on a more talented Winston? But I let the Winston apologists keep making their arguments, but eventually they'll wear out or run out of excuses until he gets it or Payton comes to Arians' conclusion... K Major likes this.
	It's not that my way is the right way, I just make the right way my way...

09-29-2021, 06:25 AM	#10
Boston Saint 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Nov 2020 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 5,137	Re: Observations from the Saints' Win over the Patriots Originally Posted by jeanpierre If Mike returns healthy we should have a three WR set WRx Thomas/Callaway, WRz Harris/Stills, WRs Montgomery/Hogan, that's not too shabby... Just seems like for Team Winston, there's always another reason 'round the corner to make excuses for Jameis' ineffectiveness this season... Packers game was an outlier, and now that teams have that film, there's nothing demonstrating a consistent ability to methodically work downfield... Brees, for all intent and purpose did it with far less; he really didn't have a healthy Thomas at all; could only get Sanders the ball on back shoulder, curls... Say what you want about Cook, but he disappeared because he's overrated and only made big catches like Tre'Quan - because he was unguarded... Reality is this, it's still early this season for Winston, we should have a better picture by the BYE, but we have five years of film on Winston's processing inability in the pocket... Bigger Question - if Sean could take a reconstructed-shouldered Brees, make him the NFL's All-Time Passer, why are the brakes being pumped on a more talented Winston? But I let the Winston apologists keep making their arguments, but eventually they'll wear out or run out of excuses until he gets it or Payton comes to Arians' conclusion... Let’s look at some numbers. In 2006, his first year as starter with the team, Brees through his first three games had: 3 TDs 2 Int 7.2 yards/attempt team 25.3 ppg Horn, Colston, Moore, Henderson, Bush, Deuce as offensive weapons. 4 pre-season games to work with the first team starters. 0 games where team was displaced by Hurricane 0 coaches missing for Covid protocol. Winston in his first 3 starts for the Saints has: 7 TDs 2 Ints 6.1 Y/A 24.3 ppg Kamara...and a bunch of guys less talented than Brees had. 1 preseason game working with starters. 3 games team displaced by Hurricane. 5 coaches at least missed from Covid protocols. Now, you can call someone pointing out these facts as being an apologist if it makes you feel better. I call it being a realist. I also don’t see the comparative “ineffectiveness” you are complaining about. Payton had two seasons watching Winston and I don’t think he would make him his starter if he had doubts about his ability to pass the ball downfield. But, as you say, time will tell. AsylumGuido likes this.
	You think you know, but you don’t know...and you never will! Coach Jim Mora

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