Originally Posted by Boston Saint (Post 943659)

If it shook down that way I understand his feeling slighted, but that makes the rule racist not the teams and the way they treated him because of the rule. This outcome was totally predictable when you try to force acceptance rather than let it happen naturally. If teams are too stupid to interview potential coaches simply because they are black then they are missing out on a tremendous resource and their on field product will show it.

Originally Posted by saintsfan1976 (Post 943660)

And John Elway sounds like a drunk ******* but not necessarily a racist.

Originally Posted by saintsfan1976 (Post 943658)

And why is being a head coach the epitome of success in the NFL? Is it only related to pay?

How many total staff members of color are there in the entire NFL?

Are there enough coordinators? What about strength trainers? Communication directors?

Originally Posted by rezburna (Post 943663)

I talked about this topic in 2016 and found a study that showed being an offensive or defensive coordinator usually translates to getting head coaching gigs for White coaches but not for Black coaches. Experience and prior role didn’t matter. There was a shortage of Black coordinators and head coaches at the time. I see a good bit of Black coordinators now, but the head coaches are scarce. And why wouldn’t being the head coach be the epitome of success if you’re a coach? That’s an odd question tbh. Why wouldn’t people aspire to be the head coach?

Originally Posted by Boston Saint (Post 943647)

So, the owner or whatever wanted him to tank for a better draft pick. Then, another team’s coach mistakenly calls him to congratulate him when another guy got the job. Maybe Im just not getting it, but where is the racial component? He WAS hired as a head coach, right?

Originally Posted by Boston Saint (Post 943654)

I don’t see anything here indicating this person was treated in any way negatively specifically because he was black. Just my opinion. The most glaring “racial” issue I see brought up is that black players are over represented at 70%. If the league was serious about “equity” then there would be a move to increase Asian, Hispanic, and White players.

Originally Posted by Boston Saint (Post 943659)

If it shook down that way I understand his feeling slighted, but that makes the rule racist not the teams and the way they treated him because of the rule. This outcome was totally predictable when you try to force acceptance rather than let it happen naturally. If teams are too stupid to interview potential coaches simply because they are black then they are missing out on a tremendous resource and their on field product will show it.

Originally Posted by Rell&Gold (Post 943668)

Treat this guy how you treat guys treat Guido or is Guido the only one who can be chastised for comments seen as unfavorable??? Like what are you getting at?

Originally Posted by saintfan (Post 943670)

Speedo has a very long history of race-baiting and making personal attacks on other members.

We all get chippy from time to time. We are here to discuss, debate, and even argue. We're a family here. Speedo goes out of his way to attack people across threads for no other reason than his ego.

Speedo is currently eating his own dog food, so to speak. All he ever had to do was stop, as far back as 3+ years ago when I asked him to, and as recently as last September when I warned him, finally, to stop personally attacking folks.

The moment speedo owns it is the moment it stops.

Y'all carry on...

:bng:

Originally Posted by Rell&Gold (Post 943672)

Right is Right Wrong is Wrong Saint. To sit up here and deny the obvious or make insinuations that deny the obvious discrimination in the NFL amongst black coaches is insane. I'm not saying you are doing that but to ANY member that is don't leave no stone unturned. I don't think nobody questions the blatant disdain Goodell has toward the Saints but will sit up here and act as if racism in the NFL a made-up illusion of some sort is something that also shouldn't be allowed.

Originally Posted by Rell&Gold (Post 943668)

Treat this guy how you treat guys treat Guido or is Guido the only one who can be chastised for comments seen as unfavorable??? Like what are you getting at?

Originally Posted by BakoSaint (Post 943641)

It would be fascinating if we hired Brian Flores as coach during the lawsuit. Most teams can't do it because they risk Goodell's ire, but we already have his ire, and we can't get any more of it. There is nothing Goodell can do beyond screwing us out of a superbowl, taking away an entire season, giving us the worst officiating call in the league every year, and not enforcing rules on the field of play if they were suggested by or could benefit our team. By hiring Flores we could actually make it harder for the NFL to screw us. All those jokes about Drew Brees wanting an explanation when the refs statistically screw us become allegations that the NFL is screwing us because of systematic racism and the Flores lawsuit, and suddenly the NFL has to be a lot more careful about it. If we hired Flores as head coach, called for a thorough and transparent investigation into his allegations, and publicly called for a new commissioner who could better represent the NFL's diverse players such as Troy Vincent or Condoleeza Rice, we would go from a cold war with Goodell to a hot war, with Goodell on the defensive in a lawsuit. I think this could actually make it harder to screw us with bad calls, and it could be quite likely for regime change to happen in the commissioners office. If it did, suddenly we are not enemy #1, and instead we are supporter #1 who helped bring the new regime in. And if it doesn't work and things blow up, we get a high draft pick and hire a new coach in a few years. Flores did a lot with a lot of roster challenges in Miami and it would be an interesting play.

Originally Posted by BakoSaint (Post 943641)

It would be fascinating if we hired Brian Flores as coach during the lawsuit. Most teams can't do it because they risk Goodell's ire, but we already have his ire, and we can't get any more of it. There is nothing Goodell can do beyond screwing us out of a superbowl, taking away an entire season, giving us the worst officiating call in the league every year, and not enforcing rules on the field of play if they were suggested by or could benefit our team. By hiring Flores we could actually make it harder for the NFL to screw us. All those jokes about Drew Brees wanting an explanation when the refs statistically screw us become allegations that the NFL is screwing us because of systematic racism and the Flores lawsuit, and suddenly the NFL has to be a lot more careful about it. If we hired Flores as head coach, called for a thorough and transparent investigation into his allegations, and publicly called for a new commissioner who could better represent the NFL's diverse players such as Troy Vincent or Condoleeza Rice, we would go from a cold war with Goodell to a hot war, with Goodell on the defensive in a lawsuit. I think this could actually make it harder to screw us with bad calls, and it could be quite likely for regime change to happen in the commissioners office. If it did, suddenly we are not enemy #1, and instead we are supporter #1 who helped bring the new regime in. And if it doesn't work and things blow up, we get a high draft pick and hire a new coach in a few years. Flores did a lot with a lot of roster challenges in Miami and it would be an interesting play.

Originally Posted by rezburna (Post 943663)

I talked about this topic in 2016 and found a study that showed being an offensive or defensive coordinator usually translates to getting head coaching gigs for White coaches but not for Black coaches. Experience and prior role didn’t matter. There was a shortage of Black coordinators and head coaches at the time. I see a good bit of Black coordinators now, but the head coaches are scarce. And why wouldn’t being the head coach be the epitome of success if you’re a coach? That’s an odd question tbh. Why wouldn’t people aspire to be the head coach?

Originally Posted by rezburna (Post 943661)

The litigation was created to at least get Black coaches a chance to be interviewed because there was a time when even that wasn’t happening. The hope was GM’s and owners would recognize that they are missing out on valuable resources and maybe we’d see a change. This has not been the result as we all know since Tomlin is the only Black coach in the NFL and Flores got fired after two back to back winning seasons for a franchise that hasn’t had that happen in well over a decade.

Originally Posted by saintsfan1976 (Post 943694)

Seems the Rooney Rule isn't having the desired outcome. I can understand why some may be frustrated.

So what is the answer? Is there a number of head coaches that give people a better sense that things are "fair", "balanced", "more representative"?

Do we consider the number of black representatives across the entire NFL landscape? Coordinators, Assistants, Directors, Executives, Owners, Part owners, NFLPA Representatives, Media, Doctors, Players..... Are those worth reevaluating?

There's been so much progress that I myself am proud to see. The fact that we're now down to fighting over a position that most franchises don't get right for decades at a time just feels disingenuous.

Originally Posted by saintsfan1976 (Post 943692)

We shouldn't assume every coach aspires to become a head coach. Since 1990, the average NFL HC tenure is just 4 seasons (link below). The pressure, the responsibility, the media.... It's not like it's a sweet gig man.

Pete Carmichael is a great example.


Link https://vikingsterritory.com/2020/ge...ans-for-zimmer

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido (Post 943703)

Included in the lawsuit is a section that proposes some things that may help. Maddy Hudak's breakdown of that section is in this tweet. Note points 2. a. and b. This would fairly demonstrate the rational for hiring, not hiring, and/or firing all individuals (black, white, green, purple, male, female, other). I understand that several public entities successfully use this methodology.

https://twitter.com/MaddyHudak_94/st...06454676770816

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido (Post 943704)

Carmichael, however, has interviewed for multiple head coaching openings in the past. The Raiders, Packers, and the Saints among them. You are correct that not every coach that aspires to be a head coach has the makeup to be a success.

Originally Posted by Boston Saint (Post 943705)

They are facing the reality that any rule/legislation/law made to promote equality by favoring one racial group over another is, by definition, unfair and unequal and will have consequences.

Flores “case” is proof of that. Because of the rule put in to try to artificially enforce an increase in black head coaches, Flores felt he was used as prop. Without the Rooney rule he may or may not have gotten a call from the Giants for an interview but he at least would have known if the interest was legit or a sham.

I also think the Giants should be able to hire whomever they want as HC (or anywhere else). Organizations that don’t want to take advantage of Black coaching talent would suffer the consequences. Long term successful organizations like the Steelers and Ravens whose coach/GM happen to be Black will take advantage and lead the way for others. But it is best to happen organically over time rather than by decree. Just like there are few Black Head coaches now, there were few Black QBs in the 70s and 80s when I grew up. Now, I don’t think there is any racial barrier for a Black QB and that happened naturally. The coaching situation will work itself out as well.

That’s just my opinions on things. I know it’s a touchy subject and I do not mean to offend anyone. Myself I want Winston back at QB and I’d by fine with Leftwich as a Head Coach, so I don’t think I have a bias. I would NOT want Flores though because it seems like he’s looking for one.

Originally Posted by Boston Saint (Post 943677)

I’m getting at the idea that there is not much evidence that Flores was treated with racial discrimination other than that teams were forced to give him a phony interview (in his opinion) to comply with a rule put in to pander to minority coaches.

Originally Posted by saintsfan1976 (Post 943707)

Then why are we distilling it down to race

Originally Posted by saintsfan1976 (Post 943708)

If I were someone in Flores situation I'd probably be pissed that I had to fly all over the country to meet with an organization that was never interested in me

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido (Post 943710)

I'm wondering the same thing, saintsfan1976. This lawsuit affects ALL avenues of the hiring and firing processes in the NFL. Lily white Jane Doe can be benefited, as well.

Originally Posted by saintsfan1976 (Post 943713)

Statement from the lawyers:

“In certain critical ways, the NFL is racially segregated and is managed much like a plantation. Its 32 owners—none of whom are Black—profit substantially from the labor of NFL players, 70% of whom are Black. The owners watch the games from atop NFL stadiums in their luxury boxes, while their majority-Black workforce put their bodies on the line every Sunday, taking vicious hits and suffering debilitating injuries to their bodies and their brains while the NFL and its owners reap billions of dollars.”

Really out to help the lily whites....


I did read one good thing: Seeking retribution for the absolute failure of the NFL to protect retired players with healthcare and the sheer criminality of hiding scientific evidence regarding brain trauma.

Originally Posted by Boston Saint (Post 943716)

But that is not the fault of the organization but rather the rule they are made to follow. The gripe is against the rule that was put in place to “fix” the inequity that is believed Black candidates face. It’s a catch 22.

Originally Posted by saintsfan1976 (Post 943717)

LOL. It just struck me that we're debating Millionaires fighting with Billionaires.

Geez man...

I need to go drop food off to parents with children who are hungry because our government killed their jobs and thinks $300 a month will cut it.

Peace out yall

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido (Post 943718)

Yup. The rule definitely has its faults. That's for sure. But it is the fault of the organization if they ignore the rule altogether as has been a point of complaint for years, don't you think?

If a rule states that an employer must interview two applicants prior to hiring either of them, and the employer hires the first interviewee prior to holding an interview with the other has the employer violated the rule? Yes or no?

Originally Posted by Boston Saint (Post 943720)

I’m guessing nothing was signed, so no “hire” was made. This mainly all supposedly started on a Belichick call/text, right? That’s not evidence of hire. I’ve interviewed people and said “you look like our hire” and changed my mind.

Maybe the Giants new 99% sure who they wanted and there were 9 other teams looking for coaches as well and wanted to see him too, so they felt they had to act. Doesn’t mean the rule was broken; ESPECIALLY not because of racial reasons.

Originally Posted by saintsfan1976 (Post 943707)

Then why are we distilling it down to race

Originally Posted by rezburna (Post 943725)

It’s distilling down to race because Black coaches are saying they want to be head coaches. Black executives are saying they want to be GM’s and Presidents. Black billionaires, the VERY short list of them that exist in this country, are saying they want ownership of teams. The NBA at least has multiple Black coaches and GM’s. I know Jordan owns the Hornets. Again, it’s being distilled down to race because Black people are saying, “Hey, help us out. We want these positions too. We can do more than just the manual labor on the field.” The response should be let’s figure out a way to help these brothers out, not looking for any way to shift the conversation off race and delegitimize the argument in its entirety. Now where I definitely agree is this: these owners can do what they want. If they want their coaching staff to be all White that’s cool. They should be able to do that, and the players have to grow balls and take a stand and say they won’t play for organizations that don’t prioritize putting the demographic that makes the NFL run in positions of power.

Originally Posted by Budsdrinker (Post 943737)

Here's my 2 cents. Hire the best candidate regardless of race. The only problem I have with Flores, is if this tanking proposal happened in 2019, why wait until after you're fired in 2022 to voice your concern.

Originally Posted by Boston Saint (Post 943733)

That’s true rez but there are a lot of White, Asian, Hispanics, etc that want to be head coaches and GMs and Owners too. Plenty of Black guys became HCs like Dungy, Green, Smith Edwards etc. There is a pathway. Should Gail Benson be forced to sell the Saints to a Black owner? Why not an Asian owner? Jerry Jones, who greatly contributed to the Cowboy’s wealth and the overall league success can’t leave the team to his children? Want is not enough reason to be given something.

Originally Posted by saintfan (Post 943738)

What we fans are privy to on NFL Radio is hardly a complete representation of what's really going on.