Re: Cards, Texans permitted to interview Sean Payton
 

nope.... tells it all in just one verse. :beatnik:


Originally Posted by Sinner View Post
"the Saints have little to no leverage" fits perfectly with "the Saints suffer from too many fumbles and false starts" and "the Saints have been decimated with injuries" and "the Saints couldn't have possibly prepared to secure a Championship-Caliber Quarterback, while Drew was in decline" or "the Saints couldn't have possibly invested $60 million in something beyond turf toe" or whatever sorry excuse some fans come upon with to give dismal ownership and (mis)management of a PROFESSIONAL FOOTBALL TEAM a pass.

:rofl:

Re: Cards, Texans permitted to interview Sean Payton
 

The whole song is based on loyal, dedicated fans, demanding excellence from a PROFFESIONAL SPORTS/ENTERTAINMENT organization. Some seem to remain under the hypnosis of wishful thinking that everything will just sort itself out if we just sit back and fork over our money, while no meaningful adjustments are made. These fans will continue to find excuses to justify the continued poor performance, and may actually enjoy the abuse. That psychology is above my pay grade.

After what we just witnessed this season, and at this time of the year, when other teams advance into the post-season, we need to be seeing some radical changes and adjustments being made. It's not happening. I just cannot sing "Kumbaya" when thinking about what our next season is going to look like.

Re: Cards, Texans permitted to interview Sean Payton
 

Re: Cards, Texans permitted to interview Sean Payton
 

Now, show him throwing his money into that fire, while saying: "I have no impact on the outcome, at all!"

Re: Cards, Texans permitted to interview Sean Payton
 

Supply and demand. The fact that he's a hot commodity is advantageous to the Saints. That creates leverage especially if we can pin two teams against each other. You've made the assumption that Sean is only going to give us one choice to fit your narrative.

Owning his rights is the single most important leverage there is. If we have no leverage, you're basically saying we have to take whatever the opposing team is willing to give us or risk not getting any compensation at all. That's not how it's going to work. That doesn't make any damn sense.

Re: Cards, Texans permitted to interview Sean Payton
 

I've tried unsuccessfully to explain this to Guido several times.

Re: Cards, Texans permitted to interview Sean Payton
 

It's not MY assumption and it's not MY narrative, papz. There is only going to be one team. Payton has already said he's looking for the best situation for him and if he doesn't find it he'll return to the studio job at Fox. Once he selects that one team Loomis said they will work out the final details. There has already been a basic understanding of the deal prior to Payton even interviewing each of the teams.

And, no, and yes. No we do not "have to take whatever the opposing team is willing to give us". We can take what was already agreed upon before they were given the okay to speak with Payton. And, yes, "risk not getting any compensation at all." That IS the way it works.

And yes it makes sense when you have limited leverage (only the ability to withhold the rights).

Re: Cards, Texans permitted to interview Sean Payton
 

I fully understand economics. I aced all four semesters of it at LSU-S. Supply and demand requires an open market, meaning there has to be multiple buyers. There aren't in this case for the Saints. There is one single buyer and that's the buyer that Sean Payton chooses, if he chooses one at all. On the other hand, the team that Payton chooses has access to multiple products (head coaching candidates) from different sources. They can keep all of their draft capital and make a different coaching hire if they so choose.

And I'm nowhere near the only one pointing out these facts.

Once again, I would absolutely love it if the Saints were in a position to shop Payton like they could a player without a no trade clause. But they aren't.

Re: Cards, Texans permitted to interview Sean Payton
 

Honestly you have a point. Look no further than when the paper bags were all over the dome.

Re: Cards, Texans permitted to interview Sean Payton
 

Not econ Guido. The simple fact that the Saints could hold more leverage than you're willing to account for.

Re: Cards, Texans permitted to interview Sean Payton
 

"Oh but this isn't anything like THOSE DAYS!"

Sam Darnold smoked us twice this season. The second and most painful time, to close the season, he smoked us at home, with 43 total passing yards, zero touchdowns and two interceptions. Maybe not time to break out the paper bags... We'll use plastic for this.

Re: Cards, Texans permitted to interview Sean Payton
 

CSP himself said on “The Herd” that he had talked with Loomis and he thinks it will be mid to late 1st round and 3rd round with the first possibly next year. That’s not someone else’s speculation.

Re: Cards, Texans permitted to interview Sean Payton
 

I don’t get how they come up with that. What if he chooses a team like the cards or Texans who don’t have a mid to late first round pick? Then what?
How do they already know that unless they already know he wants the Denver job maybe

Re: Cards, Texans permitted to interview Sean Payton
 

Give an example of that leverage, then. It doesn't even have to be real. Given the current parameters what could be a plausible leverage point? Believe me, I racked my brain for some sort of hold card for the Saints and I couldn't think of one.

Let's not forget that the same basic trade requirements were shared with all interested teams prior to any contact with Payton. You can be assured that every front office in the league knew of those same requirements within an hour. :D

The ONLY bit of leverage that I can think of would be if Payton didn't care what was going to be his final destination and what draft capital that team would have remaining after the trade. And I don't think there's a chance in hell of that being the case.

Re: Cards, Texans permitted to interview Sean Payton
 

Could swap picks or add on additional years.

Re: Cards, Texans permitted to interview Sean Payton
 

The 1st can be a 2024 pick. It doesn't have to be a 2023.

That's why I think they may have asked for a draft chart trade number that included either a 2023 or 2024 1st rounder plus other picks to total a certain value. That way all interested parties would be operating on the same scale.

Re: Cards, Texans permitted to interview Sean Payton
 

How can that be if they don’t know what the 2024 pick will be? What if they suck and it yields a top 10 pick?

Re: Cards, Texans permitted to interview Sean Payton
 

Their loss. Getting Payton is supposed to keep that from happening, right? :D

Seriously, future picks always carry less of a value than current year picks. In trades they usually treat them as being mid round.

Re: Cards, Texans permitted to interview Sean Payton
 

Gotcha

Re: Cards, Texans permitted to interview Sean Payton
 

I think the main reason why Sean holds more leverage is the single fact that he’s not desperate to coach. He’ll go back to Fox or wherever for a couple more years until he’s free if the Saints play hardball. I think Sean was throwing Mickey and the Saints a bone by meeting with Mickey to discuss something they’re both happy with. If Sean was desperate, it’d be a different story. It’s pretty unfortunate because I’m thinking maybe we won’t get what he’s worth imo. I guess we’ll see

Re: Cards, Texans permitted to interview Sean Payton
 

I don't think there's anyway that the Saints would, or could, prevent Payton from getting a job. Everyone that he's interviewing (yes, he is interviewing the teams, not the other way around) has already agreed to the basics of compensation for his rights.

Re: Cards, Texans permitted to interview Sean Payton
 

Easy there saintsfan you know AG always has to be the smartest man in the room

Re: Cards, Texans permitted to interview Sean Payton
 

I understand that, but they can agree all day on terms and if Payton doesn’t like the terms it’s a no go and everyone misses out. That gives Payton the most leverage. That’s the main point I was making.
When he said ‘if the situation is right’, part of that is not getting ass raped by a ton of picks by the Saints from his new team, including high value picks. He’ll just wait it out…He’s not stupid.
I was hopeful at first but starting to think maybe we won’t get what we feel he’s worth unfortunately

Re: Cards, Texans permitted to interview Sean Payton
 

I think you are missing the point that the terms have already been decided. That why he knows it will only include a mid to late round first along with other picks. The Saints are going to get what he's worth. It may not be some unrealistic value that fans expect, however. Some fans expect what the Raiders got while raping Tampa Bay. That was plain stupid. I think everyone now knows that isn't going to happen.

Re: Cards, Texans permitted to interview Sean Payton
 

Totally understand that. Not missing the point, just making my own

Re: Cards, Texans permitted to interview Sean Payton
 

And you are correct. We won't get what fans think he's worth. We'll get what is is actually worth.

Re: Cards, Texans permitted to interview Sean Payton
 

How is it that people vehemently profess otherwise but continue to explain how the team has the power in this situation?

• Who grants permission for interviews? Team
  
• Who gets to decide the transaction cost? Team by letting interested teams know what it will cost to allow the contract to be broken. This narrows a coaches possibilities.
  
• Who has full veto power over any deal? Team

Because on paper the TEAM holds all the power.

I have done this for a living so I will share my experience with negotiations... The party that has the least leverage is always the more desperate party. In Sean Payton's case the team has all the power but ownership, management, and fans have imposed desperation on themselves and that nullifies their leverage. This is a cognitive bias called "Loss Aversion", the fear of getting nothing, and it is what makes people accept bad deals.

Loss Aversion makes fans feel like we absolutely must get something for Sean Payton, and that is what will lead to accepting an outcome below perceived market value. He is a sunk cost that doesn't effect our cap, and you can not lose what you do not possess.:bng:

Re: Cards, Texans permitted to interview Sean Payton
 

It's a big compromise between all parties involved. The Saints aren't stuck in a corner with a tube of lube just waiting to get taken advantaged of. That only happens when you have nothing to bargain with.


The point some are trying to make is not about who carries the most leverage in this situation, but saying the fact we have little to none just doesn't make any sense. We own the rights to the biggest chip in the deal and that counts for something. We're all incentivized to make a deal.

Re: Cards, Texans permitted to interview Sean Payton
 

Exactly. That's why we are going to get a decent, fair deal. We aren't going to get anything ridiculous like multiple 1st's. We don't have that much leverage to get it if the team he wants to go to doesn't feel he's worth it. But this is all moot. Each team interested has already been told the same basic thing as far as compensation and all that were granted interviews agreed to those preliminary terms.

Re: Cards, Texans permitted to interview Sean Payton
 

Sean's shopping trip continues.

Re: Cards, Texans permitted to interview Sean Payton
 

The Chargers are definitely not in the running.

Re: Cards, Texans permitted to interview Sean Payton
 

Looks like it's down to Denver, Houston, and Carolina, it's being reported that Arizona doesn't want to give up the picks. So much for my prediction of him going to AZ... lol

Re: Cards, Texans permitted to interview Sean Payton
 

I am pulling for Sean Payton to take the job in Houston. They have plenty of draft picks so that Sean Payton does not have an empty cupboard. We know that Sean Payton can turn a team around and that team definitely needs to be turned around. I'm from Texas originally and I wouldn't mind seeing him move there. Traffic there is a real b**** though.

Re: Cards, Texans permitted to interview Sean Payton
 

Haven't heard that about Arizona ... yet. I have seen this, though. I could see Payton withdrawing interest in the Cardinals if he felt like he wouldn't have the full run with the just hired GM.

Re: Cards, Texans permitted to interview Sean Payton
 

Re: Cards, Texans permitted to interview Sean Payton
 

If the new Arizona GM doesn't stand for egos, then I can see why Payton crossed them off his list.

:D

Re: Cards, Texans permitted to interview Sean Payton
 

"A first-rounder and likely more." More confirmation. The only question is when and where will that first be located.

Re: Cards, Texans permitted to interview Sean Payton
 

Re: Cards, Texans permitted to interview Sean Payton
 

It's looking more and more like Denver and that 49er's 1st they hold. I suppose we need to start hoping for the Niners to kicked out of the dance immediately.

Re: Cards, Texans permitted to interview Sean Payton