Why Is the Defense So Bad?

FinSaint · 11-02-2012, 08:54 AM

Originally Posted by jeanpierre

That said, I would offer this solution...

If we are to salvage what we have, move to Jenkins to Strong Safety where he would be better suited as a complimentary player allowed to come up and make plays with his size...

The money that is being overspent on Harper would be used for a quality impact free agent, preferably on the defensive line or free safety...

Either way this defense, despite what I'm sure is Spagnulo's best effort, is not improving...

But how can you do that when Harper is still owed $6M is guaranteed money?

His cap hit for 2013 will be $7.1M, so after doing the math - there's no "quality impact player" than can be had for the savings made by cutting him.

After next season, he can be cut without any salary cap penalties and he would also be more attractive as a trade-bait in order to get something for him.

TheOak · 11-02-2012, 09:10 AM

Originally Posted by saintfan

Is it bad because it sucks, or does it suck because it's bad?

It sucks badly... they are homogenous.

TheOak · 11-02-2012, 09:13 AM

Originally Posted by FinSaint

But how can you do that when Harper is still owed $6M is guaranteed money?

His cap hit for 2013 will be $7.1M, so after doing the math - there's no "quality impact player" than can be had for the savings made by cutting him.

After next season, he can be cut without any salary cap penalties and he would also be more attractive as a trade-bait in order to get something for him.

Where are you getting Harpers cap hit, and Still owed guaranteed money?

TheOak · 11-02-2012, 09:19 AM

Harpers cap hit IF he is still with us is 7.1mm

If he is cut before the start of next season his cap hit due to signing bonus is only 1.75mm

Cutting him gives you 5.6mm to play with... Obviously structuring is what decides who/what talent you can bring in.

Danno · 11-02-2012, 09:21 AM

Originally Posted by x626xBlack

Where are you getting Harpers cap hit, and Still owed guaranteed money?

Base Salary S. Bonus Misc. Bonus Cap Hit
2011 1,900,000 1,750,000 - 3,650,000
2012 4,500,000 1,750,000 100,000 6,350,000
2013 5,250,000 1,750,000 100,000 7,100,000
2014 6,000,000 1,750,000 150,000 7,900,000

Roman Harper Contract, Salaries, and Transactions

He's count 3.75 mill against the cap if we cut him next year.

But why in the world would you cut your 3rd best player on defense?

Only a fool would cut him. As with every position you bring in competition and if he gets beat out, cut him. If not you keep him. Harper is far from being a main problem on this defense. Thats absurd. Hell this year a case could be made that he's our best DB and with Greer hobbled maybe our 2nd best player on Defense now behind Lofton.

TheOak · 11-02-2012, 09:25 AM

I am not looking to cut anyone just wondering where those numbers came form. We only get hit with 1.75/ year. I have seen the Roto...

The 1mm and 1.5mm are workout bonuses. If he is cut.. there is no work out bonus, work out bonuses are not part of the guaranteed.

So we have to tow 1.75mm a year for 2013/2014

Roman Harper Contract, Salaries, and Transactions

Danno · 11-02-2012, 09:55 AM

Originally Posted by x626xBlack

I am not looking to cut anyone just wondering where those numbers came form. We only get hit with 1.75/ year. I have seen the Roto...

The 1mm and 1.5mm are workout bonuses. If he is cut.. there is no work out bonus, work out bonuses are not part of the guaranteed.

So we have to tow 1.75mm a year for 2013/2014

Roman Harper Contract, Salaries, and Transactions

Both years would accelerate to 2013. You can't keep them spread out.

CharityMike · 11-02-2012, 10:08 AM

Originally Posted by jeanpierre

Harper is the most glaring weakness for opposing offenses...

Now, in regards to Jenkins, let me say that you'll find I'm on the record here as saying...

I don't like drafting Ohio State Players with the exception of certain linebackers...

He is misassigned at Free Safety and is overwhelmed, despite a Wonderlic of 23 which is actuallly pretty good for a safety...

He has not played as long as Harper, therefore, he hasn't had as many opportunities to be toasted as Harper has, so there have been fewer posts...

And I would continue to say, that the Safety Play for the Saints has been historically embarrassing these past two-three seasons...

That said, I would offer this solution...

If we are to salvage what we have, move to Jenkins to Strong Safety where he would be better suited as a complimentary player allowed to come up and make plays with his size...

The money that is being overspent on Harper would be used for a quality impact free agent, preferably on the defensive line or free safety...

Either way this defense, despite what I'm sure is Spagnulo's best effort, is not improving...

BUT you still have not given us anything about Harper this year. You are stuck in the past. Your hatred for him is plain as day to see. If you can sit there and say that Harper is the biggest problem on THIS years defense, you haven't been watching the games. Because anyone can see that he is by far not the worst problem on this unit. He has shown considerable improvement in coverage this year.

Harper: 52 Tackles 1 Int 7 Pass Defensed
Jenkins: 55 Tackles 0 Int 2 Pass Defensed

Harper has the 2nd most pass defensed on our D.

TheOak · 11-02-2012, 11:02 AM

Originally Posted by Danno

Both years would accelerate to 2013. You can't keep them spread out.

Correct but if the team goes over the salary cap because of the subsequent amortized years of the signing bonus, the hit is realized the following year...

Deferred guaranteed bonus. So while we would get hit with the full two years bonus in 2013, the 2014 could be handled in 2014 if we exceed the cap in 2013.

Danno · 11-02-2012, 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by x626xBlack

Correct but if the team goes over the salary cap because of the subsequent amortized years of the signing bonus, the hit is realized the following year...

Deferred guaranteed bonus. So while we would get hit with the full two years bonus in 2013, the 2014 could be handled in 2014 if we exceed the cap in 2013.

Welll, thank you mr Commissioner!

View Poll Results: What Is/Are the Biggest Problems With the Saints' Defense?
Lack of Talent on Defensive Line	24	39.34%
Lack of Talent at Cornerback	5	8.20%
Lack of Talent at Safety	3	4.92%
Scheme, still need time to learn	16	26.23%
Commitment to 1st Rounders, FA Contracts, Need Young Guns to Play	3	4.92%
Lack of Running Game, Puts Defense on Field to Much	10	16.39%
Voters: 61. You may not vote on this poll

11-02-2012, 08:54 AM	#91
FinSaint Site Donor 2015 Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Finland... formerly Southern Virginia Posts: 4,961	Re: Why Is the Defense So Bad? Originally Posted by jeanpierre That said, I would offer this solution... If we are to salvage what we have, move to Jenkins to Strong Safety where he would be better suited as a complimentary player allowed to come up and make plays with his size... The money that is being overspent on Harper would be used for a quality impact free agent, preferably on the defensive line or free safety... Either way this defense, despite what I'm sure is Spagnulo's best effort, is not improving... But how can you do that when Harper is still owed $6M is guaranteed money? His cap hit for 2013 will be $7.1M, so after doing the math - there's no "quality impact player" than can be had for the savings made by cutting him. After next season, he can be cut without any salary cap penalties and he would also be more attractive as a trade-bait in order to get something for him.

11-02-2012, 09:10 AM	#92
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,026	Re: Why Is the Defense So Bad? Originally Posted by saintfan Is it bad because it sucks, or does it suck because it's bad? It sucks badly... they are homogenous.

11-02-2012, 09:13 AM	#93
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,026	Re: Why Is the Defense So Bad? Originally Posted by FinSaint But how can you do that when Harper is still owed $6M is guaranteed money? His cap hit for 2013 will be $7.1M, so after doing the math - there's no "quality impact player" than can be had for the savings made by cutting him. After next season, he can be cut without any salary cap penalties and he would also be more attractive as a trade-bait in order to get something for him. Where are you getting Harpers cap hit, and Still owed guaranteed money?

11-02-2012, 09:19 AM	#94
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,026	Re: Why Is the Defense So Bad? Harpers cap hit IF he is still with us is 7.1mm If he is cut before the start of next season his cap hit due to signing bonus is only 1.75mm Cutting him gives you 5.6mm to play with... Obviously structuring is what decides who/what talent you can bring in.

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11-02-2012, 09:21 AM	#95
Danno Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,720	Re: Why Is the Defense So Bad? Originally Posted by x626xBlack Where are you getting Harpers cap hit, and Still owed guaranteed money? Base Salary S. Bonus Misc. Bonus Cap Hit 2011 1,900,000 1,750,000 - 3,650,000 2012 4,500,000 1,750,000 100,000 6,350,000 2013 5,250,000 1,750,000 100,000 7,100,000 2014 6,000,000 1,750,000 150,000 7,900,000 Roman Harper Contract, Salaries, and Transactions He's count 3.75 mill against the cap if we cut him next year. But why in the world would you cut your 3rd best player on defense? Only a fool would cut him. As with every position you bring in competition and if he gets beat out, cut him. If not you keep him. Harper is far from being a main problem on this defense. Thats absurd. Hell this year a case could be made that he's our best DB and with Greer hobbled maybe our 2nd best player on Defense now behind Lofton.

11-02-2012, 09:25 AM	#96
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,026	Re: Why Is the Defense So Bad? I am not looking to cut anyone just wondering where those numbers came form. We only get hit with 1.75/ year. I have seen the Roto... The 1mm and 1.5mm are workout bonuses. If he is cut.. there is no work out bonus, work out bonuses are not part of the guaranteed. So we have to tow 1.75mm a year for 2013/2014 Roman Harper Contract, Salaries, and Transactions

11-02-2012, 09:55 AM	#97
Danno Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,720	Re: Why Is the Defense So Bad? Originally Posted by x626xBlack I am not looking to cut anyone just wondering where those numbers came form. We only get hit with 1.75/ year. I have seen the Roto... The 1mm and 1.5mm are workout bonuses. If he is cut.. there is no work out bonus, work out bonuses are not part of the guaranteed. So we have to tow 1.75mm a year for 2013/2014 Roman Harper Contract, Salaries, and Transactions Both years would accelerate to 2013. You can't keep them spread out.

11-02-2012, 10:08 AM	#98
CharityMike Site Donor 2018 Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Mid City, New Orleans Posts: 3,556	Re: Why Is the Defense So Bad? Originally Posted by jeanpierre Harper is the most glaring weakness for opposing offenses... Now, in regards to Jenkins, let me say that you'll find I'm on the record here as saying... I don't like drafting Ohio State Players with the exception of certain linebackers... He is misassigned at Free Safety and is overwhelmed, despite a Wonderlic of 23 which is actuallly pretty good for a safety... He has not played as long as Harper, therefore, he hasn't had as many opportunities to be toasted as Harper has, so there have been fewer posts... And I would continue to say, that the Safety Play for the Saints has been historically embarrassing these past two-three seasons... That said, I would offer this solution... If we are to salvage what we have, move to Jenkins to Strong Safety where he would be better suited as a complimentary player allowed to come up and make plays with his size... The money that is being overspent on Harper would be used for a quality impact free agent, preferably on the defensive line or free safety... Either way this defense, despite what I'm sure is Spagnulo's best effort, is not improving... BUT you still have not given us anything about Harper this year. You are stuck in the past. Your hatred for him is plain as day to see. If you can sit there and say that Harper is the biggest problem on THIS years defense, you haven't been watching the games. Because anyone can see that he is by far not the worst problem on this unit. He has shown considerable improvement in coverage this year. Harper: 52 Tackles 1 Int 7 Pass Defensed Jenkins: 55 Tackles 0 Int 2 Pass Defensed Harper has the 2nd most pass defensed on our D. Danno likes this.

11-02-2012, 11:02 AM	#99
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,026	Re: Why Is the Defense So Bad? Originally Posted by Danno Both years would accelerate to 2013. You can't keep them spread out. Correct but if the team goes over the salary cap because of the subsequent amortized years of the signing bonus, the hit is realized the following year... Deferred guaranteed bonus. So while we would get hit with the full two years bonus in 2013, the 2014 could be handled in 2014 if we exceed the cap in 2013.

11-02-2012, 11:48 AM	#100
Danno Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,720	Re: Why Is the Defense So Bad? Originally Posted by x626xBlack Correct but if the team goes over the salary cap because of the subsequent amortized years of the signing bonus, the hit is realized the following year... Deferred guaranteed bonus. So while we would get hit with the full two years bonus in 2013, the 2014 could be handled in 2014 if we exceed the cap in 2013. Welll, thank you mr Commissioner! TheOak likes this.

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