Why Is the Defense So Bad?

jcp026 · 10-24-2012, 12:51 AM

There should be an "All of the Above" option.

MatthewT · 10-24-2012, 01:33 AM

I am not totally buying the new defensive scheme theory, but it is a factor for sure. Spags had some complete freaks in New York, what I mean by that is the front four he had was over the top. In most cases, teams will not find four guys who can get after the QB when they are going up against a minimum of five, throw in a TE and RB to help and it can easily roll to a 7 on 4 drill.

What Spags needs to realize is he doesn't have the dominating front four he had in the past, and needs to adjust accordingly. Good coordinators always adjusts schemes for the personnel they have available. I do see some signs that Spags is adjusting somewhat, we shall see if he figures out a way to at a very least hold opposing offenses to closer to 20 points rather than closer to 30 points per game. And that 500 plus yards given up on a regular basis, geez.

I am not really suggesting at this point Spags should be fired, but he seriously needs that squad to turn things around in a big way this year. If improvement is not made I doubt he sees year 2. The Saints window of opportunity is quickly closing on the offense. Saints need to win now while they still have a lethal offense.

jeanpierre · 10-24-2012, 07:36 AM

Originally Posted by MatthewT

...Spags needs to realize is he doesn't have the dominating front four he had in the past, and needs to adjust accordingly. Good coordinators always adjusts schemes for the personnel they have...I do see some signs that Spags is adjusting somewhat, we shall see...

...not really suggesting at this point Spags should be fired, ...If improvement is not made I doubt he sees year 2. The Saints window of opportunity is quickly closing on the offense....

Agreed. I believe he's a a very solid coordinator, but he's got major personnel issues, or lack thereof; regardless, this last placed defense (statistical ranking) may not tolerate or allow for another season...

Spags buys himself another season if he starts or increases playing time of younger players like Wilson, Hicks; if there's some improvement, he can point to personnel issues and maybe the onus finally gets put on the sorry scouting drafting job done in the upper rounds of the draft the past ten years...

dizzle88 · 10-24-2012, 08:06 AM

We have really low end DB's except for Greer

How Patrick Robinson was drafted in the first round confuses me to no end, we messed up with that

Corey white should not be starting

Our DB's aren't that smart, they don't seem to understand zone coverage means you should not follow your man wherever he goes, you lead him to your teammates zone

Our players constantly mix up zone coverage with man coverage, take a look at underwoods TD vs us on Sunday, casillas followed the TE like he was in man coverage and underwood came from the opposite side straight into where casillas was SUPPOSED to be, BUT he had mistakenly followed the TE

two men followed the TE led to underwood being wide open

Budsdrinker · 10-24-2012, 08:06 AM

I don't think there is anything wrong with the scouting department. It's a big difference from college ball to NFL and majority of our picks had great college careers that haven't translated to great NFL beginnings. Ellis was good at USC, Jenkins was good at OSU. How does the scouting department know they will not succeed? Everybody on this board thought Glenn Dorsey was a future Hall of Famer, what has he done? No one knows how the transition from college to the NFL will affect players until after they are in the league. Can't blame that on the scouts. Anyone remember Brian Bosworth, the second coming of Dick Butkus? How did that work out. Look, we have rookies starting that were only suppose to be rotating in and out and vets trying to learn a new scheme. I know everyone is tired of hearing about new scheme but when you have been playing one way for 3 years then have to change to another way it takes time to trust it. You see a guy that runs across in front of you and your instinct wants you to follow him but the scheme says turn him loose to the next guy, it's hard to do when it's the first year you play that type of system. I do agree we need to see more Hicks and Gallette and Wilson but you also have to take in consideration their styles of play. They are speed guys and sometimes their speed can't take them out of position on running plays so that is why we only see them mostly on known passing situations. We will get better because quite frankly we can't get any worst but it will take time for our guys to trust the scheme and not react to what they see all the time.

Haps Biggest Fan · 10-29-2012, 01:10 AM

Originally Posted by jeanpierre

This guy hangs it on defensive talent evaluation, which is ultimately on Loomis...

Saints Nation: Saints Problems on Defense Due to Poor Talent Evaluation? | September

Originally Posted by Budsdrinker

I don't think there is anything wrong with the scouting department. It's a big difference from college ball to NFL and majority of our picks had great college careers that haven't translated to great NFL beginnings. Ellis was good at USC, Jenkins was good at OSU. How does the scouting department know they will not succeed? Everybody on this board thought Glenn Dorsey was a future Hall of Famer, what has he done? No one knows how the transition from college to the NFL will affect players until after they are in the league. Can't blame that on the scouts. Anyone remember Brian Bosworth, the second coming of Dick Butkus? How did that work out. Look, we have rookies starting that were only suppose to be rotating in and out and vets trying to learn a new scheme. I know everyone is tired of hearing about new scheme but when you have been playing one way for 3 years then have to change to another way it takes time to trust it. You see a guy that runs across in front of you and your instinct wants you to follow him but the scheme says turn him loose to the next guy, it's hard to do when it's the first year you play that type of system. I do agree we need to see more Hicks and Gallette and Wilson but you also have to take in consideration their styles of play. They are speed guys and sometimes their speed can't take them out of position on running plays so that is why we only see them mostly on known passing situations. We will get better because quite frankly we can't get any worst but it will take time for our guys to trust the scheme and not react to what they see all the time.

Who IS the "scouting department" ? What are their names ?

Loomis is the GM. In your model NFL front office, your GM is you football player personnel guru who knows how to build a roster.

If the Saints roster sucks on D (and it does suck) that means that the FO is not getting the job done. That means LOOMIS is not getting the job done.

People say "well Loomis is not a football guy, he's just an accountant". Well, Benson needs to hire a football guy to be GM. Loomis is in the wrong job.

xan · 10-24-2012, 08:19 AM

What happened to the option for LB's? If the LB's are always in inferior positions, and can't cover a tight end, then what good is a pass rush or DBs?

Danno · 10-24-2012, 08:22 AM

Originally Posted by xan

What happened to the option for LB's? If the LB's are always in inferior positions, and can't cover a tight end, then what good is a pass rush or DBs?

LOL! You're right. The 2nd worst unit on the entire team isn't even an option?

QB's are destroying us with short passes and crossing routes abusing our LB's and thats not even a freaking option?

This thread fails miserably.

pinch · 10-24-2012, 09:57 AM

Players who are not that great to begin with are now being forced to think; the outcome isn't optimal.

lumm0x · 10-24-2012, 10:16 AM

I went with scheme, but I feel the need to clarify why. I don't think there is anything necessarily wrong with Spagnuolo's scheme as a concept. We know it can and has worked for him and he's built some great defensive units. But that word is the key...."built". He has not built ours, he inherited ours with the exception of a couple first year players and a couple free agents.

Scheme is the big difference, as under Williams we manufactured pressure using the blitz of guys like Vilma, Harper, CB's and just plain overloads. We also asked the coverage LB's and DB's to man up on personnel, hoping the rush forced the pass or got there before coverage broke down. Player's instincts were to stick with a man or run downhill to the QB. Now these same players are being asked to man a zone and avoid their instincts. Guys used to containing gaps or setting the edge to allow other pressure to get there are now being told to maintain gap integrity but to pull a magic array of pass rush moves to get there themselves because no help is coming to force QB's. We don't have elite talent on the DL. We have some good but not great pieces who flat out are not the answer to get there by themselves. Gregg Williams built his defense to be just that and now Spags is stuck with square pegs to fit in his round holes. In 3 years it very well may become an elite defense. For now it's a frustrating struggle to watch guys play a scheme they are unaccustomed to, cannot execute due to lack of experience or ability.

View Poll Results: What Is/Are the Biggest Problems With the Saints' Defense?
Lack of Talent on Defensive Line	24	39.34%
Lack of Talent at Cornerback	5	8.20%
Lack of Talent at Safety	3	4.92%
Scheme, still need time to learn	16	26.23%
Commitment to 1st Rounders, FA Contracts, Need Young Guns to Play	3	4.92%
Lack of Running Game, Puts Defense on Field to Much	10	16.39%
Voters: 61. You may not vote on this poll

10-24-2012, 12:51 AM	#1
jcp026 500th Post Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 953	Re: Why Is the Defense So Bad? There should be an "All of the Above" option.
jcp026 500th Post Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 953

10-24-2012, 01:33 AM	#2
MatthewT 1000 Posts + Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Mississippi Posts: 2,729	Re: Why Is the Defense So Bad? I am not totally buying the new defensive scheme theory, but it is a factor for sure. Spags had some complete freaks in New York, what I mean by that is the front four he had was over the top. In most cases, teams will not find four guys who can get after the QB when they are going up against a minimum of five, throw in a TE and RB to help and it can easily roll to a 7 on 4 drill. What Spags needs to realize is he doesn't have the dominating front four he had in the past, and needs to adjust accordingly. Good coordinators always adjusts schemes for the personnel they have available. I do see some signs that Spags is adjusting somewhat, we shall see if he figures out a way to at a very least hold opposing offenses to closer to 20 points rather than closer to 30 points per game. And that 500 plus yards given up on a regular basis, geez. I am not really suggesting at this point Spags should be fired, but he seriously needs that squad to turn things around in a big way this year. If improvement is not made I doubt he sees year 2. The Saints window of opportunity is quickly closing on the offense. Saints need to win now while they still have a lethal offense.

10-24-2012, 07:36 AM	#3
jeanpierre Site Donor 2018 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Thibodaux Posts: 43,543 Blog Entries: 39	Re: Why Is the Defense So Bad? Originally Posted by MatthewT ...Spags needs to realize is he doesn't have the dominating front four he had in the past, and needs to adjust accordingly. Good coordinators always adjusts schemes for the personnel they have...I do see some signs that Spags is adjusting somewhat, we shall see... ...not really suggesting at this point Spags should be fired, ...If improvement is not made I doubt he sees year 2. The Saints window of opportunity is quickly closing on the offense.... Agreed. I believe he's a a very solid coordinator, but he's got major personnel issues, or lack thereof; regardless, this last placed defense (statistical ranking) may not tolerate or allow for another season... Spags buys himself another season if he starts or increases playing time of younger players like Wilson, Hicks; if there's some improvement, he can point to personnel issues and maybe the onus finally gets put on the sorry scouting drafting job done in the upper rounds of the draft the past ten years...

10-24-2012, 08:06 AM	#4
dizzle88 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 11,523	Re: Why Is the Defense So Bad? We have really low end DB's except for Greer How Patrick Robinson was drafted in the first round confuses me to no end, we messed up with that Corey white should not be starting Our DB's aren't that smart, they don't seem to understand zone coverage means you should not follow your man wherever he goes, you lead him to your teammates zone Our players constantly mix up zone coverage with man coverage, take a look at underwoods TD vs us on Sunday, casillas followed the TE like he was in man coverage and underwood came from the opposite side straight into where casillas was SUPPOSED to be, BUT he had mistakenly followed the TE two men followed the TE led to underwood being wide open pherein likes this.
	Your bonehead creator picked a fine chapter to omit from your memory bank....let me ask you, does a machine like yourself ever experience fear? - Vegeta, DBZ

10-24-2012, 08:06 AM	#5
Budsdrinker A Cajun Transforming TX Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: The Woodlands, Texas Posts: 2,787	Re: Why Is the Defense So Bad? I don't think there is anything wrong with the scouting department. It's a big difference from college ball to NFL and majority of our picks had great college careers that haven't translated to great NFL beginnings. Ellis was good at USC, Jenkins was good at OSU. How does the scouting department know they will not succeed? Everybody on this board thought Glenn Dorsey was a future Hall of Famer, what has he done? No one knows how the transition from college to the NFL will affect players until after they are in the league. Can't blame that on the scouts. Anyone remember Brian Bosworth, the second coming of Dick Butkus? How did that work out. Look, we have rookies starting that were only suppose to be rotating in and out and vets trying to learn a new scheme. I know everyone is tired of hearing about new scheme but when you have been playing one way for 3 years then have to change to another way it takes time to trust it. You see a guy that runs across in front of you and your instinct wants you to follow him but the scheme says turn him loose to the next guy, it's hard to do when it's the first year you play that type of system. I do agree we need to see more Hicks and Gallette and Wilson but you also have to take in consideration their styles of play. They are speed guys and sometimes their speed can't take them out of position on running plays so that is why we only see them mostly on known passing situations. We will get better because quite frankly we can't get any worst but it will take time for our guys to trust the scheme and not react to what they see all the time. hagan714 likes this.

10-29-2012, 01:10 AM	#6
Haps Biggest Fan Fan Since 1967 Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Louisiana Posts: 148	Re: Why Is the Defense So Bad? Originally Posted by jeanpierre This guy hangs it on defensive talent evaluation, which is ultimately on Loomis... Saints Nation: Saints Problems on Defense Due to Poor Talent Evaluation? \| September Originally Posted by Budsdrinker I don't think there is anything wrong with the scouting department. It's a big difference from college ball to NFL and majority of our picks had great college careers that haven't translated to great NFL beginnings. Ellis was good at USC, Jenkins was good at OSU. How does the scouting department know they will not succeed? Everybody on this board thought Glenn Dorsey was a future Hall of Famer, what has he done? No one knows how the transition from college to the NFL will affect players until after they are in the league. Can't blame that on the scouts. Anyone remember Brian Bosworth, the second coming of Dick Butkus? How did that work out. Look, we have rookies starting that were only suppose to be rotating in and out and vets trying to learn a new scheme. I know everyone is tired of hearing about new scheme but when you have been playing one way for 3 years then have to change to another way it takes time to trust it. You see a guy that runs across in front of you and your instinct wants you to follow him but the scheme says turn him loose to the next guy, it's hard to do when it's the first year you play that type of system. I do agree we need to see more Hicks and Gallette and Wilson but you also have to take in consideration their styles of play. They are speed guys and sometimes their speed can't take them out of position on running plays so that is why we only see them mostly on known passing situations. We will get better because quite frankly we can't get any worst but it will take time for our guys to trust the scheme and not react to what they see all the time. Who IS the "scouting department" ? What are their names ? Loomis is the GM. In your model NFL front office, your GM is you football player personnel guru who knows how to build a roster. If the Saints roster sucks on D (and it does suck) that means that the FO is not getting the job done. That means LOOMIS is not getting the job done. People say "well Loomis is not a football guy, he's just an accountant". Well, Benson needs to hire a football guy to be GM. Loomis is in the wrong job.

10-24-2012, 08:19 AM	#7
xan Professor Crab and Site Donor 2014 Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Princeton Posts: 3,372 Blog Entries: 34	Re: Why Is the Defense So Bad? What happened to the option for LB's? If the LB's are always in inferior positions, and can't cover a tight end, then what good is a pass rush or DBs? Danno and pherein like this.

10-24-2012, 08:22 AM	#8
Danno Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,751	Re: Why Is the Defense So Bad? Originally Posted by xan What happened to the option for LB's? If the LB's are always in inferior positions, and can't cover a tight end, then what good is a pass rush or DBs? LOL! You're right. The 2nd worst unit on the entire team isn't even an option? QB's are destroying us with short passes and crossing routes abusing our LB's and thats not even a freaking option? This thread fails miserably.

10-24-2012, 09:57 AM	#9
pinch 100th Post Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Diamondhead, MS Posts: 272 Blog Entries: 1	Re: Why Is the Defense So Bad? Players who are not that great to begin with are now being forced to think; the outcome isn't optimal.

10-24-2012, 10:16 AM	#10
lumm0x Resident antediluvian Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,026	Re: Why Is the Defense So Bad? I went with scheme, but I feel the need to clarify why. I don't think there is anything necessarily wrong with Spagnuolo's scheme as a concept. We know it can and has worked for him and he's built some great defensive units. But that word is the key...."built". He has not built ours, he inherited ours with the exception of a couple first year players and a couple free agents. Scheme is the big difference, as under Williams we manufactured pressure using the blitz of guys like Vilma, Harper, CB's and just plain overloads. We also asked the coverage LB's and DB's to man up on personnel, hoping the rush forced the pass or got there before coverage broke down. Player's instincts were to stick with a man or run downhill to the QB. Now these same players are being asked to man a zone and avoid their instincts. Guys used to containing gaps or setting the edge to allow other pressure to get there are now being told to maintain gap integrity but to pull a magic array of pass rush moves to get there themselves because no help is coming to force QB's. We don't have elite talent on the DL. We have some good but not great pieces who flat out are not the answer to get there by themselves. Gregg Williams built his defense to be just that and now Spags is stuck with square pegs to fit in his round holes. In 3 years it very well may become an elite defense. For now it's a frustrating struggle to watch guys play a scheme they are unaccustomed to, cannot execute due to lack of experience or ability.

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