another i cant hepp it thread

saintfan · 02-17-2005, 05:28 PM

I respect both you guys, and maybe you can live with a guy who leads the league in horrible stats, but I can\'t. Says nothing about me, says nothing about you guys, just shows where we are willing to draw the line.

We can take all sorts of stats and you can spin \'em and I can spin \'em. I think during our posting we both have, but the stat that matters most to me (and no, I\'m not dissing all the others necessarilly) is scoring. Our Brooks-led offense, year after year, regardless or this stat or that stat or the other stat, scores enough to win...we just can\'t stop anybody, and replacing the QB with somebody\'s water boy isn\'t going to help that problem. Maybe we can replace Venturi with somebody\'s water boy...now THAT I\'d go for!

saintswhodi · 02-17-2005, 05:32 PM

Yards allowed is a team stat. Did Joe Horn also have 3500 passing yards? You are just being silly now kool. I am sure you know the difference between INDIVIDUAL and TEAM stats. But if that is how you deflect from Brooks, have at it. I see where you come from now on this argument, and realize it makes no sense for me to diagree with you cause you are entrenched in defending him. It\'s all good. He\'s your guy, I get it. I won\'t beat myself up about it anymore thinking you are riding the fence, when you are really a supporter.

Danno · 02-17-2005, 05:35 PM

Imagine a QB who throws only 10 p ***** before he is K.O.ed by an wicked hit. Say nine of those p ***** are completed for 45 yards and a TD. But the throws a pick on the play he gets knocked out.

Jkool, I think the filter is a bit too sensitive.
Anyway, here\'s my analysis...
My ***esment, or ***umption, is that p***es will now be called from the ***istant coaches which I feel may be an ***ett now. ***igning blame and ***ailing Brooks\' for everything he does borders on character ******ination and har***ment. I can probably ***emble a beautiful video tape, without much ***istance of Brooks ***ention from a rookie to the ***et he has become to this ***ortment of underachieving athletes. I ***ure you it would ***ist in convincing the detractors of his value to this team. It wold be a m***ive task, but the m***es may come around.

JKool · 02-17-2005, 05:35 PM

Whodi,

Thanks for that most recent post. That sounded like what I was getting at.

You and I agree that Brooks is a problem. All along, I\'ve only been defending him (not absolving him - since that means saying he has no fault) because I think relative to some other options (no matter how bad he has been), he is better than THOSE options.

The point isn\'t to say that he is a good QB, or even that he is good for the team. The point is to say, relative to our other problems (and the options we have for replacing him) he isn\'t that bad.

Furthermore, see my point regarding stats. I just think, in a team game, sometimes (not always) it makes sense to look at why someone\'s stats are the way they are.

I hear you on the number of years thing, but I\'m not convinced - see my \"only fixed thing\" argument above.

I DO AGREE THAT BROOKS IS A PROBLEM. HE MAKES DUMB MISTAKES AND HE DOES HURT THE TEAM. EVERYONE AGREES WITH THAT.

The disagreement is about whether he should be replaced and with whom. Obviously, we want to make decisions on the basis of the whole game, not just a handful of stats.

If I were to ask, why did Hasselbeck\'s stats drop off last year, and someone were to say \"his WR dropped a lot of balls\", I would think, \"oh, ok, so his stats are not all on him\". That seems reasonable. I didn\'t stop thinking that his drop off was somewhat his fault, I just think it is less his fault than before.

I don\'t understand why that is confusing?

saintfan · 02-17-2005, 05:37 PM

Our Brooks-led offense, year after year, regardless or this stat or that stat or the other stat, scores enough to win...

I agree with you Whodi. I agree that Brooks makes some boneheaded plays. Do you agree with the above? Is 21 points enough to win? Is giving up 20 points a game something you\'d accept?

JKool · 02-17-2005, 05:39 PM

He\'s your guy, I get it. I won\'t beat myself up about it anymore thinking you are riding the fence, when you are really a supporter.

Whodi, you obviously didn\'t read what I said. The fact that you would bother to write this is both offensive and annoying.

I\'m sorry that I don\'t agree that Brooks just plain sucks. I\'ve stated my view elsewhere, and I am on the fence when it comes to him. What I\'m not on the fence about is the way you have treated me in this argument.

I thought we were getting somewhere, but you obviously prefer to make it about me rather than about the ideas. I don\'t like that at all.

JKool · 02-17-2005, 05:42 PM

Danno.

Now that I\'ve managed to decode your post, I think I agree somewhat. Is that what you really think?

JKool · 02-17-2005, 05:43 PM

Did Joe Horn also have 3500 passing yards?

No, but Joe Horn certainly had a hand in that, didn\'t he?

saintswhodi · 02-17-2005, 05:45 PM

It\'s not about you Kool, it\'s about you saying you are on the fence, then you defend harder than anyone. Frogive me if that would be confusing. The yeah so and so does this BUT argument does not seem like someone who is on the fence to me. It seems like you very much know where you stand on this issue, and anyone who reads this thread and didn\'t know you would see the same. No need to take it personal, just shows me how things are. Doesn\'t change the facts that you arguments are intelligent and challenging, just changes how I have to approach them.

saintswhodi · 02-17-2005, 05:48 PM

I agree with you Whodi. I agree that Brooks makes some boneheaded plays. Do you agree with the above? Is 21 points enough to win? Is giving up 20 points a game something you\'d accept?

Well let\'s see saintfan. Since Atlanta and St. Louis\' defenses both gave up more than 20 points per game last year, and their offenses scored LESS points per game than ours, hell yeah I would take it, if it came with a QB who didn\'t lead the league in red zone turnovers. They both made the playoffs right?

[Edited on 17/2/2005 by saintswhodi]

02-17-2005, 05:28 PM	#51
saintfan Donated Plasma Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 18,556 Blog Entries: 5	another i cant hepp it thread I respect both you guys, and maybe you can live with a guy who leads the league in horrible stats, but I can\'t. Says nothing about me, says nothing about you guys, just shows where we are willing to draw the line. We can take all sorts of stats and you can spin \'em and I can spin \'em. I think during our posting we both have, but the stat that matters most to me (and no, I\'m not dissing all the others necessarilly) is scoring. Our Brooks-led offense, year after year, regardless or this stat or that stat or the other stat, scores enough to win...we just can\'t stop anybody, and replacing the QB with somebody\'s water boy isn\'t going to help that problem. Maybe we can replace Venturi with somebody\'s water boy...now THAT I\'d go for!
	C'mon Man...

02-17-2005, 05:32 PM	#52
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	another i cant hepp it thread Yards allowed is a team stat. Did Joe Horn also have 3500 passing yards? You are just being silly now kool. I am sure you know the difference between INDIVIDUAL and TEAM stats. But if that is how you deflect from Brooks, have at it. I see where you come from now on this argument, and realize it makes no sense for me to diagree with you cause you are entrenched in defending him. It\'s all good. He\'s your guy, I get it. I won\'t beat myself up about it anymore thinking you are riding the fence, when you are really a supporter.

02-17-2005, 05:35 PM	#53
Danno Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,720	another i cant hepp it thread Imagine a QB who throws only 10 p *** before he is K.O.ed by an wicked hit. Say nine of those p * are completed for 45 yards and a TD. But the throws a pick on the play he gets knocked out. Jkool, I think the filter is a bit too sensitive. Anyway, here\'s my analysis... My esment, or umption, is that pes will now be called from the istant coaches which I feel may be an ett now. igning blame and ailing Brooks\' for everything he does borders on character ***ination and harment. I can probably emble a beautiful video tape, without much istance of Brooks ention from a rookie to the et he has become to this ortment of underachieving athletes. I ure you it would ist in convincing the detractors of his value to this team. It wold be a mive task, but the m**es may come around.

02-17-2005, 05:35 PM	#54
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	another i cant hepp it thread Whodi, Thanks for that most recent post. That sounded like what I was getting at. You and I agree that Brooks is a problem. All along, I\'ve only been defending him (not absolving him - since that means saying he has no fault) because I think relative to some other options (no matter how bad he has been), he is better than THOSE options. The point isn\'t to say that he is a good QB, or even that he is good for the team. The point is to say, relative to our other problems (and the options we have for replacing him) he isn\'t that bad. Furthermore, see my point regarding stats. I just think, in a team game, sometimes (not always) it makes sense to look at why someone\'s stats are the way they are. I hear you on the number of years thing, but I\'m not convinced - see my \"only fixed thing\" argument above. I DO AGREE THAT BROOKS IS A PROBLEM. HE MAKES DUMB MISTAKES AND HE DOES HURT THE TEAM. EVERYONE AGREES WITH THAT. The disagreement is about whether he should be replaced and with whom. Obviously, we want to make decisions on the basis of the whole game, not just a handful of stats. If I were to ask, why did Hasselbeck\'s stats drop off last year, and someone were to say \"his WR dropped a lot of balls\", I would think, \"oh, ok, so his stats are not all on him\". That seems reasonable. I didn\'t stop thinking that his drop off was somewhat his fault, I just think it is less his fault than before. I don\'t understand why that is confusing?
	"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks

02-17-2005, 05:37 PM	#55
saintfan Donated Plasma Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 18,556 Blog Entries: 5	another i cant hepp it thread Our Brooks-led offense, year after year, regardless or this stat or that stat or the other stat, scores enough to win... I agree with you Whodi. I agree that Brooks makes some boneheaded plays. Do you agree with the above? Is 21 points enough to win? Is giving up 20 points a game something you\'d accept?

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02-17-2005, 05:39 PM	#56
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	another i cant hepp it thread He\'s your guy, I get it. I won\'t beat myself up about it anymore thinking you are riding the fence, when you are really a supporter. Whodi, you obviously didn\'t read what I said. The fact that you would bother to write this is both offensive and annoying. I\'m sorry that I don\'t agree that Brooks just plain sucks. I\'ve stated my view elsewhere, and I am on the fence when it comes to him. What I\'m not on the fence about is the way you have treated me in this argument. I thought we were getting somewhere, but you obviously prefer to make it about me rather than about the ideas. I don\'t like that at all.

02-17-2005, 05:42 PM	#57
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	another i cant hepp it thread Danno. Now that I\'ve managed to decode your post, I think I agree somewhat. Is that what you really think?

02-17-2005, 05:43 PM	#58
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	another i cant hepp it thread Did Joe Horn also have 3500 passing yards? No, but Joe Horn certainly had a hand in that, didn\'t he?

02-17-2005, 05:45 PM	#59
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	another i cant hepp it thread It\'s not about you Kool, it\'s about you saying you are on the fence, then you defend harder than anyone. Frogive me if that would be confusing. The yeah so and so does this BUT argument does not seem like someone who is on the fence to me. It seems like you very much know where you stand on this issue, and anyone who reads this thread and didn\'t know you would see the same. No need to take it personal, just shows me how things are. Doesn\'t change the facts that you arguments are intelligent and challenging, just changes how I have to approach them.

02-17-2005, 05:48 PM	#60
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	another i cant hepp it thread I agree with you Whodi. I agree that Brooks makes some boneheaded plays. Do you agree with the above? Is 21 points enough to win? Is giving up 20 points a game something you\'d accept? Well let\'s see saintfan. Since Atlanta and St. Louis\' defenses both gave up more than 20 points per game last year, and their offenses scored LESS points per game than ours, hell yeah I would take it, if it came with a QB who didn\'t lead the league in red zone turnovers. They both made the playoffs right? [Edited on 17/2/2005 by saintswhodi]