Official 2024 Free Agency Discussion

02-03-2024, 10:04 PM

Originally Posted by Danno

The 1st half of the season our O-line was a sieve. Carr was forced to either throw too early, resulting in "hospital" balls or he had to take a sack.

I feel if we fix our O-line then Carr can be that QB that could lead us deep into the playoffs.

But as long as we have a terrible O-line, Carr, as well as any other QB, will fail.

Mission 1 this offseason is O-line.

I agree that our biggest problem on the field is offensive line. The problem is that even if we fixed that problem alone I don't think we contend with the top teams, and we are unlikely to fix that problem.

With a good offensive line Carr, is a B-level quarterback but still not a Mahomes type. To win with a B level QB we need a lights out defense.

But our offensive line is likely to be hard to fix. Ramczyk was our best or 2nd best oline last year and has a degenerative knee condition. Peat plays the most important position on our oline at Left Tackle and held up surprisingly well last year but is aging and injury prone overall, although he is our best option there unless we draft Left Tackle in the 1st round. We have limited draft picks and the least salary cap space of any team in the NFL, plus oline is very hard to address in free agency as teams typically only let go players who are aging and injury prone.

Erik McCoy is a solid Center, but its hard to build the entire oline around a center. Plus McCoy played 17 games last year but only managed 12-13 the previous two years, so there is a risk that he reverts to the mean. Cesar Ruiz was sub-mediocre for a couple years, his contract was running out and he tried harder and was a little above average, we got excited and paid him, and he returned to mediocrity once the check cleared. He is not a terrible liability but he is punching a clock out there. And at LG we have nothing, Hurst is a mediocre journeyman, if we get a new LT and move Peat back to LG then Peat is a mediocre injury prone journeyman there. And the worst answer to any of this is Penning, who will be kept in case a spark lights up, but 90% he is worse than anyone on our practice squad at any position.

So even if we go oline in the 1st round or sign a big oline in free agency, we are not one player away from a solid oline, we need to go all in to fix the oline.

But if we go all in to fix the oline and succeed, what do we have? We still have a B-level QB and that means we need a top defense to win. But then Jordan, Davis, and Lattimore are all a year older, and likely our defense regresses. Dennis Allen has put together some very defenses but still could not win it all with Brees and Payton running the offense. So to win it all with Carr, DA would need to put together his best defense ever, a Ray Lewis or Warren Sapp or Von Miller type defense. If he was ever going to do that, I see no way its now with our aging core, broken cap, and all the draft picks and free agency money going to oline. We are just too many players away to fix this without a full rebuild, even if oline is where that rebuild should start.

SaintFanInATLHELL · 02-04-2024, 10:55 AM

Originally Posted by Sinner

As a long time Saints Fan, I am entitled to vent my harsh judgments and fault finding in a Saints Forum. Y’all are entitled to sit with the same basket of lemons, and make as much lemonade as you wish. I prefer to demand caviar from a multimillion dollar enterprise. Or at least, a nice slice of NY Pizza. I’m talking and venting about a professional football team. You’re talking about me.
That’s the only difference between us.

Never said that you didn't have a right to it. Just saying that just because most of us don't agree with the depth of your assessment that we are somehow "hypnotized". Do I think the Saints might be better with an innovative offensive minded head coach? Sure. That Loomis gets stuck in a loop with older players that get less productive? That too. But I'm pretty sure that neither are going to change their stripes. So, I see the reality: a 9-10 win football team that could do better with some improvements in the lines, and a bit of luck in terms of health. That's not hypnotism.

SFIAH

Sinner · 02-04-2024, 10:59 AM

Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL

Never said that you didn't have a right to it. Just saying that just because most of us don't agree with the depth of your assessment that we are somehow "hypnotized". Do I think the Saints might be better with an innovative offensive minded head coach? Sure. That Loomis gets stuck in a loop with older players that get less productive? That too. But I'm pretty sure that neither are going to change their stripes. So, I see the reality: a 9-10 win football team that could do better with some improvements in the lines, and a bit of luck in terms of health. That's not hypnotism.

SFIAH

What I call “hypnotism” is whatever makes some of y’all happy with everything you just described.

BakoSaint · 02-04-2024, 11:34 AM

Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL

Never said that you didn't have a right to it. Just saying that just because most of us don't agree with the depth of your assessment that we are somehow "hypnotized". Do I think the Saints might be better with an innovative offensive minded head coach? Sure. That Loomis gets stuck in a loop with older players that get less productive? That too. But I'm pretty sure that neither are going to change their stripes. So, I see the reality: a 9-10 win football team that could do better with some improvements in the lines, and a bit of luck in terms of health. That's not hypnotism.

SFIAH

If I understand you correctly, you are saying we should all learn to like what we don't have the power to change. That sounds like Stockholm Syndrome. Personally, I prefer to sit back and hope for the swat team to rush in. Or more realistically I hope for Gayle Benson to notice a cooling of the public adulation toward her when she attends various civic and religious functions and galas and to decide to make some popular changes to be the belle of the ball again.

AsylumGuido · 02-04-2024, 12:32 PM

Originally Posted by BakoSaint

If I understand you correctly, you are saying we should all learn to like what we don't have the power to change. That sounds like Stockholm Syndrome. Personally, I prefer to sit back and hope for the swat team to rush in. Or more realistically I hope for Gayle Benson to notice a cooling of the public adulation toward her when she attends various civic and religious functions and galas and to decide to make some popular changes to be the belle of the ball again.

You seem to think that anything less than winning it all is a failure. I feel like most devoted fans take pleasure in the journey and do not hang their hat upon final destination. There are 32 teams in this league. Not every one will have a Mahomes, or even a Brees. Not every one will have a killer offensive line. What the realistic and devoted fans of all of those teams want more than all is to be able watch and support their teams knowing that they stand a reasonable chance of winning each week. They also understand that chances are they will not win every week. Winning a championship is icing on the cake, but knowing only one team every year reaches that pinnacle these fans take pleasure in that stated journey, win or lose.

As for Gayle Benson, don't you worry, the overwhelmingly vast majority of people out there are not shallow enough to hang their admiration of that wonderful woman based upon anything as trivial as the accounting methodology and the staffing of the team that she has committed to retaining in their city for the foreseeable future, win or lose.

Sinner · 02-04-2024, 12:58 PM

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido

You seem to think that anything less than winning it all is a failure. I feel like most devoted fans take pleasure in the journey and do not hang their hat upon final destination. There are 32 teams in this league. Not every one will have a Mahomes, or even a Brees. Not every one will have a killer offensive line. What the realistic and devoted fans of all of those teams want more than all is to be able watch and support their teams knowing that they stand a reasonable chance of winning each week. They also understand that chances are they will not win every week. Winning a championship is icing on the cake, but knowing only one team every year reaches that pinnacle these fans take pleasure in that stated journey, win or lose.

As for Gayle Benson, don't you worry, the overwhelmingly vast majority of people out there are not shallow enough to hang their admiration of that wonderful woman based upon anything as trivial as the accounting methodology and the staffing of the team that she has committed to retaining in their city for the foreseeable future, win or lose.

I think (not SEEM to think) that anything less than winning, is by definition, LOSING. I know (not think) that you seem to enjoy it.

Sinner · 02-04-2024, 01:05 PM

Originally Posted by BakoSaint

If I understand you correctly, you are saying we should all learn to like what we don't have the power to change. That sounds like Stockholm Syndrome. Personally, I prefer to sit back and hope for the swat team to rush in. Or more realistically I hope for Gayle Benson to notice a cooling of the public adulation toward her when she attends various civic and religious functions and galas and to decide to make some popular changes to be the belle of the ball again.

I have found a deep psychology/pathology in these threads. People who tend to believe themselves powerless to change anything, learn how to accept and enjoy dismal and disappointing situations. The barely mediocre culture that the Saints front office and staff are firmly operating within, is trickling down to the fans who cheer for more of the same, which signals “all the right people in the building” to “just keep doing what they’re doing”.

SaintFanInATLHELL · 02-04-2024, 02:42 PM

Originally Posted by Sinner

What I call “hypnotism” is whatever makes some of y’all happy with everything you just described.

Very few are happy. It's just that most of us are not going to wallow in the misery of not seeing any change. It has to be brutal to think that everything here is crap and nothing is going to change. You seem prepared to go the 2, or 3, or 5, or 10 years or more of not seeing the change that you seek. You keep equating acceptance of reality with being happy. They are not the same.

SFIAH

Sinner · 02-04-2024, 02:47 PM

Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL

Very few are happy. It's just that most of us are not going to wallow in the misery of not seeing any change. It has to be brutal to think that everything here is crap and nothing is going to change. You seem prepared to go the 2, or 3, or 5, or 10 years or more of not seeing the change that you seek. You keep equating acceptance of reality with being happy. They are not the same.

SFIAH

“2, or 3, or 5, or 10 years or more of not seeing the change that you seek…”

That right there ^^^ is enough to inspire a good bit of wallowing.

BakoSaint · 02-04-2024, 09:07 PM

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido

You seem to think that anything less than winning it all is a failure. I feel like most devoted fans take pleasure in the journey and do not hang their hat upon final destination. There are 32 teams in this league. Not every one will have a Mahomes, or even a Brees. Not every one will have a killer offensive line. What the realistic and devoted fans of all of those teams want more than all is to be able watch and support their teams knowing that they stand a reasonable chance of winning each week. They also understand that chances are they will not win every week. Winning a championship is icing on the cake, but knowing only one team every year reaches that pinnacle these fans take pleasure in that stated journey, win or lose.

As for Gayle Benson, don't you worry, the overwhelmingly vast majority of people out there are not shallow enough to hang their admiration of that wonderful woman based upon anything as trivial as the accounting methodology and the staffing of the team that she has committed to retaining in their city for the foreseeable future, win or lose.

I dont expect us to be in the Super Bowl every year but what I take pleasure in is the process of a realistic plan to get there. If we went 7-10 after cleaning out the cap and came in 2nd place in the division while getting some exciting wins against division rivals with a young up and coming team and lots of cap space I would view that as part of a process toward possibly winning it all a year or two down the road and would be excited. If we went 3-14 during a rebuild and got the #1 overall pick and a new head coach i would not love the 14 losses but i would be excited about a new season with a new head coach. If the next season we went 9-8 with an affordable rookie qb, young core, and cap space I would feel the sky is the limit for the coming seasons. I want a long term plan to win it all, not this year, not every year, but some year, and any year its possible. With Brees I felt we were a threat to win it all every year, if we could make a bad defense into an average one and a a few balls bounced our way.

But what we have now does not excite me. 9-8 with all in maxxed cap trading draft picks and deferring cap dollars to 33-35 year olds into 2028 does not seem like a plan to win it all in 2024, 2025, 2026, 2027, or 2028. It seems like a plan to hope to settle for 9-10 wins and one week of playoffs, best case scenario. I want to strike fear into the Chiefs or 49ers etc, if not now, down the road. I enjoy the a process too, but I enjoy the process of ambition, not contentment with medicirity. The process of ambition can start from the lowest of the low. It could be a 5 win season when you aren’t expected to win 1 because you did everything to clear the cap. But its not a process of settling. It’s not a process of saying 2nd place in the division every year is good enough because in the 1970’s we were last.

02-03-2024, 10:04 PM	#31
Threaded by BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 2,134 Rating: (0 votes - average) Originally Posted by Danno The 1st half of the season our O-line was a sieve. Carr was forced to either throw too early, resulting in "hospital" balls or he had to take a sack. I feel if we fix our O-line then Carr can be that QB that could lead us deep into the playoffs. But as long as we have a terrible O-line, Carr, as well as any other QB, will fail. Mission 1 this offseason is O-line. I agree that our biggest problem on the field is offensive line. The problem is that even if we fixed that problem alone I don't think we contend with the top teams, and we are unlikely to fix that problem. With a good offensive line Carr, is a B-level quarterback but still not a Mahomes type. To win with a B level QB we need a lights out defense. But our offensive line is likely to be hard to fix. Ramczyk was our best or 2nd best oline last year and has a degenerative knee condition. Peat plays the most important position on our oline at Left Tackle and held up surprisingly well last year but is aging and injury prone overall, although he is our best option there unless we draft Left Tackle in the 1st round. We have limited draft picks and the least salary cap space of any team in the NFL, plus oline is very hard to address in free agency as teams typically only let go players who are aging and injury prone. Erik McCoy is a solid Center, but its hard to build the entire oline around a center. Plus McCoy played 17 games last year but only managed 12-13 the previous two years, so there is a risk that he reverts to the mean. Cesar Ruiz was sub-mediocre for a couple years, his contract was running out and he tried harder and was a little above average, we got excited and paid him, and he returned to mediocrity once the check cleared. He is not a terrible liability but he is punching a clock out there. And at LG we have nothing, Hurst is a mediocre journeyman, if we get a new LT and move Peat back to LG then Peat is a mediocre injury prone journeyman there. And the worst answer to any of this is Penning, who will be kept in case a spark lights up, but 90% he is worse than anyone on our practice squad at any position. So even if we go oline in the 1st round or sign a big oline in free agency, we are not one player away from a solid oline, we need to go all in to fix the oline. But if we go all in to fix the oline and succeed, what do we have? We still have a B-level QB and that means we need a top defense to win. But then Jordan, Davis, and Lattimore are all a year older, and likely our defense regresses. Dennis Allen has put together some very defenses but still could not win it all with Brees and Payton running the offense. So to win it all with Carr, DA would need to put together his best defense ever, a Ray Lewis or Warren Sapp or Von Miller type defense. If he was ever going to do that, I see no way its now with our aging core, broken cap, and all the draft picks and free agency money going to oline. We are just too many players away to fix this without a full rebuild, even if oline is where that rebuild should start. Last edited by BakoSaint; 02-03-2024 at 11:03 PM..
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02-04-2024, 10:55 AM	#32
SaintFanInATLHELL The Professor Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Lithonia, GA Posts: 2,773	Re: 2024 Saints Off-Season General News and Discussion Originally Posted by Sinner As a long time Saints Fan, I am entitled to vent my harsh judgments and fault finding in a Saints Forum. Y’all are entitled to sit with the same basket of lemons, and make as much lemonade as you wish. I prefer to demand caviar from a multimillion dollar enterprise. Or at least, a nice slice of NY Pizza. I’m talking and venting about a professional football team. You’re talking about me. That’s the only difference between us. Never said that you didn't have a right to it. Just saying that just because most of us don't agree with the depth of your assessment that we are somehow "hypnotized". Do I think the Saints might be better with an innovative offensive minded head coach? Sure. That Loomis gets stuck in a loop with older players that get less productive? That too. But I'm pretty sure that neither are going to change their stripes. So, I see the reality: a 9-10 win football team that could do better with some improvements in the lines, and a bit of luck in terms of health. That's not hypnotism. SFIAH
	Super Bowl Championships: New Orleans Saints:1, Carolina:0, Atlanta Chokers: STILL ZERO Only Atlanta choked in an unchokable situation... Life is definitely good.

02-04-2024, 10:59 AM	#33
Sinner 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 3,873	Re: 2024 Saints Off-Season General News and Discussion Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL Never said that you didn't have a right to it. Just saying that just because most of us don't agree with the depth of your assessment that we are somehow "hypnotized". Do I think the Saints might be better with an innovative offensive minded head coach? Sure. That Loomis gets stuck in a loop with older players that get less productive? That too. But I'm pretty sure that neither are going to change their stripes. So, I see the reality: a 9-10 win football team that could do better with some improvements in the lines, and a bit of luck in terms of health. That's not hypnotism. SFIAH What I call “hypnotism” is whatever makes some of y’all happy with everything you just described.
Sinner 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 3,873

02-04-2024, 11:34 AM	#34
BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 2,134	Re: 2024 Saints Off-Season General News and Discussion Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL Never said that you didn't have a right to it. Just saying that just because most of us don't agree with the depth of your assessment that we are somehow "hypnotized". Do I think the Saints might be better with an innovative offensive minded head coach? Sure. That Loomis gets stuck in a loop with older players that get less productive? That too. But I'm pretty sure that neither are going to change their stripes. So, I see the reality: a 9-10 win football team that could do better with some improvements in the lines, and a bit of luck in terms of health. That's not hypnotism. SFIAH If I understand you correctly, you are saying we should all learn to like what we don't have the power to change. That sounds like Stockholm Syndrome. Personally, I prefer to sit back and hope for the swat team to rush in. Or more realistically I hope for Gayle Benson to notice a cooling of the public adulation toward her when she attends various civic and religious functions and galas and to decide to make some popular changes to be the belle of the ball again. Sinner likes this.
BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 2,134

02-04-2024, 12:32 PM	#35
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,212	Re: 2024 Saints Off-Season General News and Discussion Originally Posted by BakoSaint If I understand you correctly, you are saying we should all learn to like what we don't have the power to change. That sounds like Stockholm Syndrome. Personally, I prefer to sit back and hope for the swat team to rush in. Or more realistically I hope for Gayle Benson to notice a cooling of the public adulation toward her when she attends various civic and religious functions and galas and to decide to make some popular changes to be the belle of the ball again. You seem to think that anything less than winning it all is a failure. I feel like most devoted fans take pleasure in the journey and do not hang their hat upon final destination. There are 32 teams in this league. Not every one will have a Mahomes, or even a Brees. Not every one will have a killer offensive line. What the realistic and devoted fans of all of those teams want more than all is to be able watch and support their teams knowing that they stand a reasonable chance of winning each week. They also understand that chances are they will not win every week. Winning a championship is icing on the cake, but knowing only one team every year reaches that pinnacle these fans take pleasure in that stated journey, win or lose. As for Gayle Benson, don't you worry, the overwhelmingly vast majority of people out there are not shallow enough to hang their admiration of that wonderful woman based upon anything as trivial as the accounting methodology and the staffing of the team that she has committed to retaining in their city for the foreseeable future, win or lose.
	“The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.” — Winston Churchill

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02-04-2024, 12:58 PM	#36
Sinner 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 3,873	Re: 2024 Saints Off-Season General News and Discussion Originally Posted by AsylumGuido You seem to think that anything less than winning it all is a failure. I feel like most devoted fans take pleasure in the journey and do not hang their hat upon final destination. There are 32 teams in this league. Not every one will have a Mahomes, or even a Brees. Not every one will have a killer offensive line. What the realistic and devoted fans of all of those teams want more than all is to be able watch and support their teams knowing that they stand a reasonable chance of winning each week. They also understand that chances are they will not win every week. Winning a championship is icing on the cake, but knowing only one team every year reaches that pinnacle these fans take pleasure in that stated journey, win or lose. As for Gayle Benson, don't you worry, the overwhelmingly vast majority of people out there are not shallow enough to hang their admiration of that wonderful woman based upon anything as trivial as the accounting methodology and the staffing of the team that she has committed to retaining in their city for the foreseeable future, win or lose. I think (not SEEM to think) that anything less than winning, is by definition, LOSING. I know (not think) that you seem to enjoy it.
Sinner 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 3,873

02-04-2024, 01:05 PM	#37
Sinner 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 3,873	Re: 2024 Saints Off-Season General News and Discussion Originally Posted by BakoSaint If I understand you correctly, you are saying we should all learn to like what we don't have the power to change. That sounds like Stockholm Syndrome. Personally, I prefer to sit back and hope for the swat team to rush in. Or more realistically I hope for Gayle Benson to notice a cooling of the public adulation toward her when she attends various civic and religious functions and galas and to decide to make some popular changes to be the belle of the ball again. I have found a deep psychology/pathology in these threads. People who tend to believe themselves powerless to change anything, learn how to accept and enjoy dismal and disappointing situations. The barely mediocre culture that the Saints front office and staff are firmly operating within, is trickling down to the fans who cheer for more of the same, which signals “all the right people in the building” to “just keep doing what they’re doing”. K Major likes this.
Sinner 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 3,873

02-04-2024, 02:42 PM	#38
SaintFanInATLHELL The Professor Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Lithonia, GA Posts: 2,773	Re: 2024 Saints Off-Season General News and Discussion Originally Posted by Sinner What I call “hypnotism” is whatever makes some of y’all happy with everything you just described. Very few are happy. It's just that most of us are not going to wallow in the misery of not seeing any change. It has to be brutal to think that everything here is crap and nothing is going to change. You seem prepared to go the 2, or 3, or 5, or 10 years or more of not seeing the change that you seek. You keep equating acceptance of reality with being happy. They are not the same. SFIAH

02-04-2024, 02:47 PM	#39
Sinner 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 3,873	Re: 2024 Saints Off-Season General News and Discussion Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL Very few are happy. It's just that most of us are not going to wallow in the misery of not seeing any change. It has to be brutal to think that everything here is crap and nothing is going to change. You seem prepared to go the 2, or 3, or 5, or 10 years or more of not seeing the change that you seek. You keep equating acceptance of reality with being happy. They are not the same. SFIAH “2, or 3, or 5, or 10 years or more of not seeing the change that you seek…” That right there ^^^ is enough to inspire a good bit of wallowing.
Sinner 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 3,873

02-04-2024, 09:07 PM	#40
BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 2,134	Re: 2024 Saints Off-Season General News and Discussion Originally Posted by AsylumGuido You seem to think that anything less than winning it all is a failure. I feel like most devoted fans take pleasure in the journey and do not hang their hat upon final destination. There are 32 teams in this league. Not every one will have a Mahomes, or even a Brees. Not every one will have a killer offensive line. What the realistic and devoted fans of all of those teams want more than all is to be able watch and support their teams knowing that they stand a reasonable chance of winning each week. They also understand that chances are they will not win every week. Winning a championship is icing on the cake, but knowing only one team every year reaches that pinnacle these fans take pleasure in that stated journey, win or lose. As for Gayle Benson, don't you worry, the overwhelmingly vast majority of people out there are not shallow enough to hang their admiration of that wonderful woman based upon anything as trivial as the accounting methodology and the staffing of the team that she has committed to retaining in their city for the foreseeable future, win or lose. I dont expect us to be in the Super Bowl every year but what I take pleasure in is the process of a realistic plan to get there. If we went 7-10 after cleaning out the cap and came in 2nd place in the division while getting some exciting wins against division rivals with a young up and coming team and lots of cap space I would view that as part of a process toward possibly winning it all a year or two down the road and would be excited. If we went 3-14 during a rebuild and got the #1 overall pick and a new head coach i would not love the 14 losses but i would be excited about a new season with a new head coach. If the next season we went 9-8 with an affordable rookie qb, young core, and cap space I would feel the sky is the limit for the coming seasons. I want a long term plan to win it all, not this year, not every year, but some year, and any year its possible. With Brees I felt we were a threat to win it all every year, if we could make a bad defense into an average one and a a few balls bounced our way. But what we have now does not excite me. 9-8 with all in maxxed cap trading draft picks and deferring cap dollars to 33-35 year olds into 2028 does not seem like a plan to win it all in 2024, 2025, 2026, 2027, or 2028. It seems like a plan to hope to settle for 9-10 wins and one week of playoffs, best case scenario. I want to strike fear into the Chiefs or 49ers etc, if not now, down the road. I enjoy the a process too, but I enjoy the process of ambition, not contentment with medicirity. The process of ambition can start from the lowest of the low. It could be a 5 win season when you aren’t expected to win 1 because you did everything to clear the cap. But its not a process of settling. It’s not a process of saying 2nd place in the division every year is good enough because in the 1970’s we were last. jnormand, Sinner, K Major and 1 others like this.
BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 2,134