Saints Insiders?

BillyCarpenter1 · 09-18-2003, 08:08 AM

WhoDat -- I don\'t have a problem with you thinking that there are better QB\'s for our system. I just feel like Aaron has progressed nicely in our system and he had a lot to do with our offense leading the NFC in points. I think he does make bad decisions and I think he needs to get better and if he doesn\'t we need to have another QB. My whole problem is if you are saying that he doesn\'t deserve more time to correct those mistakes.

What ever the case may be this is just something that Aaron is going to have to prove on the field. I don\'t think either of us are going to win this argument with stats or anything like that.

WhoDat · 09-18-2003, 08:14 AM

Finally Billy, we agree. The thing that frustrates me the most about your opinion and Saintfans - and it\'s a valid belief, so I\'m not saying you\'re wrong or ignorant for having it, I\'m just saying I disagree and it frustrates me - is you are willing to give Brooks so much time. After this season he will have had 4 years of experience as a starter. That\'s enough for me when you\'re paying the guy the kind of money we are. I too think he has to prove it on the field. I wasn\'t calling for them to find another starter this offseason. This is Brooks\' year to step up or step out to me. I have NOT closed the door on him yet. You are right in that respect. Not b/c I don\'t want to be proven wrong on this board, but b/c the jury is still out. Am I leaning in one direction? Sure, but that doesn\'t mean I think Brooks has no chance. I\'d love to see him start making the right decision, showing he can make great reads, and getting the ball out quickly. If he does that, I\'ll happily support him.

saintfan · 09-18-2003, 09:39 AM

What, exactly, is it, Whodat, that Brooks hasn\'t done in the first two games of THIS year to give you the impression that he isn\'t right for the Saints \"system\"?

WhoDat · 09-18-2003, 03:46 PM

Well Saintfan, it\'s little things. Things that can be corrected, but still haven\'t been. In week one, he was leading our receivers directly into hits. He threw some bad passes that were behind players, at their feet, etc. That\'s a touch issue. Again, as I said before, the receivers being hit COULD be an issue with the system. In any case, I don\'t like seeing our receivers getting jacked by linebackers for a 4 yard completion, or having their heads taken off by safeties for a 7yard gain.

Last week, those Joe Horn eyes resurfaced. With the exception of a dropped pass to Ernie Conwell, and one or two to Deuce, was a pass thrown to any other receiver in the entire first half? Yeah, he did a better job in the second half, which I commended him for, and will do again.

Still, these two things listed above reinforce my belief that he is not great at making reads. Leading your receiver into a big hit may be something you have to do from time to time to pick up a first down on 3rd and 7, but you should know not to do it on 1st down. And are we to believe that Horn was the only guy open on the entire field in the first half last Sunday? He still isn\'t getting the ball out very quickly. He has reduced the mistakes, but still makes a good number. And while he hasn\'t thrown any passes that I would call extremely dangerous, he also still isn\'t being very clear in his decision to run, throw it away, or try to complete a pass when he is scrambling. Three turnovers in week 1 - that\'s not taking care of the ball.

Now, let me ask you a question Saintfan. I am saying that Brooks DESERVES this year to prove himself. I am also saying that there is potential for him to be THE guy in the NFL. It seems to me that you aren\'t happy unless I say that he has ALREADY proved himself - which, judging from this board, is a belief that ONLY YOU HOLD. Now, if Brooks really is so good, why are you so opposed to competition? I mean, he\'d beat them out anyway right? Why is suggesting that the Saint go and get a talented player to compete for the job such a threat?

[Edited on 18/9/2003 by WhoDat]

saintfan · 09-18-2003, 04:43 PM

Ya know, Whodat, who is known around the league as a QB that gets he receivers \"popped\" by leading them into hits? Do you?

BRETT FARVE

But then I guess you\'d have him shape up his game too huh?

I know very well that you\'re aware of the fact that when you send guys over the middle (which our style of offense predicates) they\'re gonna get popped. You KNOW this and you\'ve seen other QB\'s that YOU call \"great\" throw the same balls Brooks throws. Why is it that you can see past it where other guys are concerned but not where OUR QB is concerned? I can only figure your biased against our QB. Nothing else makes a damn bit of sense.

Man, my point is that (and everytime you post something you prove it) there is NOTHING that Brooks can do to satisfy you. You\'ve softened somewhat I\'ll agree, but you\'re still not happy with Brooks, and the things you aren\'t happy about are the very things that plenty of the best QB\'s in the game have been and continue to be guilty of. Short of Jake Delhomme I don\'t think there\'s ANYONE who could make you happy...and the funny thing is that with Jake you\'d be happy with far less.

WhoDat · 09-18-2003, 04:58 PM

What\'s amazing to me is that you have taken my desire to see Jake play in 3 GAMES last season - and my use of his skillset as a good example of the type of skills a QB in our system should posses, and turned that into some obsession I have with Jake. Yes, I do like Jake. He\'s a local boy. He plays with fire. He\'s an underdog. So yes, I do like him - I want him to do well. But with the exception of one comment, which I made out of frustration (and Billy has consequently latched onto), I\'ve never said that Jake will be a Pro Bowler, or Top 5 QB, or any of the things you two say about Brooks.

Now, I asked you a direct question. As usual, you skirted it. So, Saintfan - if Brooks is such a stud, why do you so strongly oppose the addition of another strong QB? Are you scared that the other QB could perform just as well in our system and expose Brooks for what he is? An average or above average QB who is made to look much better by the weapons on his team... ??? Is that it?

BillyCarpenter1 · 09-18-2003, 05:19 PM

Now, I asked you a direct question. As usual, you skirted it. So, Saintfan - if Brooks is such a stud, why do you so strongly oppose the addition of another strong QB? Are you scared that the other QB could perform just as well in our system and expose Brooks for what he is? An average or above average QB who is made to look much better by the weapons on his team... ??? Is that it?

Brooks has had competition and has competetion now. Jake Delhomme had his chance and Bouman has his chance now. No QB is safe in the NFL and this includes Brooks. You just despise Haslett so much for not putting Delhomme in last year that you THINK Haslettt is going to stick with Brooks no matter what. Isn\'t that the real truth??

Man, you are really starting to nit-pik on what you expect Aaron to do. You talk about him locking onto Joe Horn. What about those 130 plus catches Peyton threw to Marvin Harrission last year? Then you talk about Brooks leading the receivers and getting them killed like he does that every game. Nit-piking is what your doing and frankly I could make Joe Montana look bad if I did the samething.

saintfan · 09-18-2003, 06:01 PM

When, sir did I ever say I opposed competition? In fact I never did, and in fact if you\'d do half the research on that subject as you do trying to dig up stastics to prove your point about AB then you\'d find quotes where I\'ve ALWAYS said if someone can come in a take the job from Brooks then fine. I have always fought you and \"08\" in particular about your seeming desire to scrap Brooks for any number of people simply because you don\'t like him.

A classic case of the pot makin reference to the kettle --

ssmitty · 09-18-2003, 06:45 PM

i\'ve openingly bashed brooks.........so what? i\'ve also given credit where credit is due..
brooks is making the big money now, he should be performing big as well.....
no ifs buts or ands about it..
no woulda, coulda, shoulda. crap either......
i let this one go a long time ago,,,,,,now i watch and watch and wait......
if i may suggest..........let\'s all watch and wait...........
let this dog sleep with one eye open......
brooks is doing very well imo........i do believe he can read the defenses....
i am also stating things i\'ve already posted.....
enough........bang.....bang.......bang........one in the back of the head,
one in the forehead......
and one in the ear.........
billiy...............................billy.....................................billy...............................
enough of ab.................................................
please.................................................................smitty

BlackandBlue · 09-18-2003, 07:20 PM

In week one, he was leading our receivers directly into hits.

I blame the coaching for this. I don\'t like seeing Horn or Stallworth running as many crossing patterns as they did. The middle of the field should be reserved for the tight ends and Pathon 80% of the time. I don\'t mind it every now and then, but Horn should be running slants, deep routes, 5 and out\'s and 10 and in\'s, with maybe a couple of crossing patterns thrown in per game. Stallworth the same, allthough I would bump deep routes to the top of his list.

He threw some bad passes that were behind players, at their feet, etc.

I thought he was throwing the ball fine, correct me if I am wrong. but I only remember two plays where he threw behind the reciever, and one that was at the shoe\'s. When I saw the one to Horn, though, I knew someone here was going to blow it out of proportion (not referring to you, but some earlier posts last week)

Last week, those Joe Horn eyes resurfaced. With the exception of a dropped pass to Ernie Conwell, and one or two to Deuce, was a pass thrown to any other receiver in the entire first half?

You are correct, but I think that it had more to do with who we were playing. Shawn Springs was out, so Horn was lined up against Lucas most of the first half, and Horn had his number. I asked in another thread if anyone was at the game to see just how tight the coverage was. You\'ll notice that after the half, they had Lucas playing Horn along with Tongue/Trufant/Williams always nearby, depending on the defensive scheme, basically double coverage. On some plays, that meant one less safety, which means more throws to Stallworth. I think the coverage was tight, hell, this is one of the top secondaries in the NFC, even with Springs out.

He still isn\'t getting the ball out very quickly.

True. I hope this is because defenses have fresher legs at the beginning of the season. It was frustrating to watch, knowing the pocket would collapse at any moment, and all you can do is yell at the TV to throw it. Perhaps he\'s overthinking, which is dangerous. Oh yeah, a big hell yeah to the offensive line, they look good.

Three turnovers in week 1 - that\'s not taking care of the ball.

You know as well as I do that the interception was a freak occurance that could happen to any QB in the NFL. Still, two turnovers in one game is unacceptable by one player.

[Edited on 18/9/2003 by BlackandBlue]

09-18-2003, 08:08 AM	#101
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209	Saints Insiders? WhoDat -- I don\'t have a problem with you thinking that there are better QB\'s for our system. I just feel like Aaron has progressed nicely in our system and he had a lot to do with our offense leading the NFC in points. I think he does make bad decisions and I think he needs to get better and if he doesn\'t we need to have another QB. My whole problem is if you are saying that he doesn\'t deserve more time to correct those mistakes. What ever the case may be this is just something that Aaron is going to have to prove on the field. I don\'t think either of us are going to win this argument with stats or anything like that.
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209

09-18-2003, 08:14 AM	#102
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	Saints Insiders? Finally Billy, we agree. The thing that frustrates me the most about your opinion and Saintfans - and it\'s a valid belief, so I\'m not saying you\'re wrong or ignorant for having it, I\'m just saying I disagree and it frustrates me - is you are willing to give Brooks so much time. After this season he will have had 4 years of experience as a starter. That\'s enough for me when you\'re paying the guy the kind of money we are. I too think he has to prove it on the field. I wasn\'t calling for them to find another starter this offseason. This is Brooks\' year to step up or step out to me. I have NOT closed the door on him yet. You are right in that respect. Not b/c I don\'t want to be proven wrong on this board, but b/c the jury is still out. Am I leaning in one direction? Sure, but that doesn\'t mean I think Brooks has no chance. I\'d love to see him start making the right decision, showing he can make great reads, and getting the ball out quickly. If he does that, I\'ll happily support him.
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. ThatÃ¢Â€Â™s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans SaintsÃ¢Â€Â™ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse \"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

09-18-2003, 09:39 AM	#103
saintfan Donated Plasma Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 18,556 Blog Entries: 5	Saints Insiders? What, exactly, is it, Whodat, that Brooks hasn\'t done in the first two games of THIS year to give you the impression that he isn\'t right for the Saints \"system\"?

09-18-2003, 03:46 PM	#104
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	Saints Insiders? Well Saintfan, it\'s little things. Things that can be corrected, but still haven\'t been. In week one, he was leading our receivers directly into hits. He threw some bad passes that were behind players, at their feet, etc. That\'s a touch issue. Again, as I said before, the receivers being hit COULD be an issue with the system. In any case, I don\'t like seeing our receivers getting jacked by linebackers for a 4 yard completion, or having their heads taken off by safeties for a 7yard gain. Last week, those Joe Horn eyes resurfaced. With the exception of a dropped pass to Ernie Conwell, and one or two to Deuce, was a pass thrown to any other receiver in the entire first half? Yeah, he did a better job in the second half, which I commended him for, and will do again. Still, these two things listed above reinforce my belief that he is not great at making reads. Leading your receiver into a big hit may be something you have to do from time to time to pick up a first down on 3rd and 7, but you should know not to do it on 1st down. And are we to believe that Horn was the only guy open on the entire field in the first half last Sunday? He still isn\'t getting the ball out very quickly. He has reduced the mistakes, but still makes a good number. And while he hasn\'t thrown any passes that I would call extremely dangerous, he also still isn\'t being very clear in his decision to run, throw it away, or try to complete a pass when he is scrambling. Three turnovers in week 1 - that\'s not taking care of the ball. Now, let me ask you a question Saintfan. I am saying that Brooks DESERVES this year to prove himself. I am also saying that there is potential for him to be THE guy in the NFL. It seems to me that you aren\'t happy unless I say that he has ALREADY proved himself - which, judging from this board, is a belief that ONLY YOU HOLD. Now, if Brooks really is so good, why are you so opposed to competition? I mean, he\'d beat them out anyway right? Why is suggesting that the Saint go and get a talented player to compete for the job such a threat? [Edited on 18/9/2003 by WhoDat]
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. ThatÃ¢Â€Â™s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans SaintsÃ¢Â€Â™ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse \"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

09-18-2003, 04:43 PM	#105
saintfan Donated Plasma Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 18,556 Blog Entries: 5	Saints Insiders? Ya know, Whodat, who is known around the league as a QB that gets he receivers \"popped\" by leading them into hits? Do you? BRETT FARVE But then I guess you\'d have him shape up his game too huh? I know very well that you\'re aware of the fact that when you send guys over the middle (which our style of offense predicates) they\'re gonna get popped. You KNOW this and you\'ve seen other QB\'s that YOU call \"great\" throw the same balls Brooks throws. Why is it that you can see past it where other guys are concerned but not where OUR QB is concerned? I can only figure your biased against our QB. Nothing else makes a damn bit of sense. Man, my point is that (and everytime you post something you prove it) there is NOTHING that Brooks can do to satisfy you. You\'ve softened somewhat I\'ll agree, but you\'re still not happy with Brooks, and the things you aren\'t happy about are the very things that plenty of the best QB\'s in the game have been and continue to be guilty of. Short of Jake Delhomme I don\'t think there\'s ANYONE who could make you happy...and the funny thing is that with Jake you\'d be happy with far less.
	C'mon Man...

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09-18-2003, 04:58 PM	#106
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	Saints Insiders? What\'s amazing to me is that you have taken my desire to see Jake play in 3 GAMES last season - and my use of his skillset as a good example of the type of skills a QB in our system should posses, and turned that into some obsession I have with Jake. Yes, I do like Jake. He\'s a local boy. He plays with fire. He\'s an underdog. So yes, I do like him - I want him to do well. But with the exception of one comment, which I made out of frustration (and Billy has consequently latched onto), I\'ve never said that Jake will be a Pro Bowler, or Top 5 QB, or any of the things you two say about Brooks. Now, I asked you a direct question. As usual, you skirted it. So, Saintfan - if Brooks is such a stud, why do you so strongly oppose the addition of another strong QB? Are you scared that the other QB could perform just as well in our system and expose Brooks for what he is? An average or above average QB who is made to look much better by the weapons on his team... ??? Is that it?
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. ThatÃ¢Â€Â™s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans SaintsÃ¢Â€Â™ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse \"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

09-18-2003, 05:19 PM	#107
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209	Saints Insiders? Now, I asked you a direct question. As usual, you skirted it. So, Saintfan - if Brooks is such a stud, why do you so strongly oppose the addition of another strong QB? Are you scared that the other QB could perform just as well in our system and expose Brooks for what he is? An average or above average QB who is made to look much better by the weapons on his team... ??? Is that it? Brooks has had competition and has competetion now. Jake Delhomme had his chance and Bouman has his chance now. No QB is safe in the NFL and this includes Brooks. You just despise Haslett so much for not putting Delhomme in last year that you THINK Haslettt is going to stick with Brooks no matter what. Isn\'t that the real truth?? Man, you are really starting to nit-pik on what you expect Aaron to do. You talk about him locking onto Joe Horn. What about those 130 plus catches Peyton threw to Marvin Harrission last year? Then you talk about Brooks leading the receivers and getting them killed like he does that every game. Nit-piking is what your doing and frankly I could make Joe Montana look bad if I did the samething.
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209

09-18-2003, 06:01 PM	#108
saintfan Donated Plasma Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 18,556 Blog Entries: 5	Saints Insiders? When, sir did I ever say I opposed competition? In fact I never did, and in fact if you\'d do half the research on that subject as you do trying to dig up stastics to prove your point about AB then you\'d find quotes where I\'ve ALWAYS said if someone can come in a take the job from Brooks then fine. I have always fought you and \"08\" in particular about your seeming desire to scrap Brooks for any number of people simply because you don\'t like him. A classic case of the pot makin reference to the kettle --
	C'mon Man...

09-18-2003, 06:45 PM	#109
ssmitty 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 1,879	Saints Insiders? i\'ve openingly bashed brooks.........so what? i\'ve also given credit where credit is due.. brooks is making the big money now, he should be performing big as well..... no ifs buts or ands about it.. no woulda, coulda, shoulda. crap either...... i let this one go a long time ago,,,,,,now i watch and watch and wait...... if i may suggest..........let\'s all watch and wait........... let this dog sleep with one eye open...... brooks is doing very well imo........i do believe he can read the defenses.... i am also stating things i\'ve already posted..... enough........bang.....bang.......bang........one in the back of the head, one in the forehead...... and one in the ear......... billiy...............................billy.....................................billy............................... enough of ab................................................. please.................................................................smitty
ssmitty 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 1,879

09-18-2003, 07:20 PM	#110
BlackandBlue Kinder, gentler Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: dirty south Posts: 3,889	Saints Insiders? In week one, he was leading our receivers directly into hits. I blame the coaching for this. I don\'t like seeing Horn or Stallworth running as many crossing patterns as they did. The middle of the field should be reserved for the tight ends and Pathon 80% of the time. I don\'t mind it every now and then, but Horn should be running slants, deep routes, 5 and out\'s and 10 and in\'s, with maybe a couple of crossing patterns thrown in per game. Stallworth the same, allthough I would bump deep routes to the top of his list. He threw some bad passes that were behind players, at their feet, etc. I thought he was throwing the ball fine, correct me if I am wrong. but I only remember two plays where he threw behind the reciever, and one that was at the shoe\'s. When I saw the one to Horn, though, I knew someone here was going to blow it out of proportion (not referring to you, but some earlier posts last week) Last week, those Joe Horn eyes resurfaced. With the exception of a dropped pass to Ernie Conwell, and one or two to Deuce, was a pass thrown to any other receiver in the entire first half? You are correct, but I think that it had more to do with who we were playing. Shawn Springs was out, so Horn was lined up against Lucas most of the first half, and Horn had his number. I asked in another thread if anyone was at the game to see just how tight the coverage was. You\'ll notice that after the half, they had Lucas playing Horn along with Tongue/Trufant/Williams always nearby, depending on the defensive scheme, basically double coverage. On some plays, that meant one less safety, which means more throws to Stallworth. I think the coverage was tight, hell, this is one of the top secondaries in the NFC, even with Springs out. He still isn\'t getting the ball out very quickly. True. I hope this is because defenses have fresher legs at the beginning of the season. It was frustrating to watch, knowing the pocket would collapse at any moment, and all you can do is yell at the TV to throw it. Perhaps he\'s overthinking, which is dangerous. Oh yeah, a big hell yeah to the offensive line, they look good. Three turnovers in week 1 - that\'s not taking care of the ball. You know as well as I do that the interception was a freak occurance that could happen to any QB in the NFL. Still, two turnovers in one game is unacceptable by one player. [Edited on 18/9/2003 by BlackandBlue]
	The waiting drove me mad.... I don't want to hear from those that know... Everything has changed, absolutely nothing's changed Eddie is a....draftnik?