Who is the new BnG dealer?

saintswhodi · 03-18-2005, 11:33 AM

Either way, it can be argued that he is the best receiver that has laced \'em up for this team and there are some who are just writing him off as just another dude playing wideout.

You mean a team with one playoff victory? It can also be argued that AB is the best QB we have ever had(not in my mind though). Is that something to be proud of FOR THIS TEAM? If we are talking LBs, well, we do have a history there. But offensively, that list is SHORT. Hell, it can be argued Deuce is the best RB we ever had(I think he is). Not saying much. Sorry yasoon.

GumboBC · 03-18-2005, 11:35 AM

I think it\'s great that Joe catches a lot of passes every year. I think it\'s great that Amani Toomer, Derick Mason, Rod Smith, and many other receivers catch a lot of passes every year.

But, does that make them truly elite receivers? Not in my book. It makes them good and dependable. And that\'s nothing to sneeze at. There\'s always a place on my team of guys like that.

But there\'s a big drop off between guys like Joe Horn and Derick Mason when compared to guys like Marvin Harrison, Tory Holt, and the Terrell Owens of the world.

Simply put, no matter what Joe Horn\'s stats may be, he simply can\'t change the game like some receivers can. That doesn\'t mean it can\'t catch TDs or make some tough catches. He most certainly can.

If we are going to pay top 5 money at the WR postion, there are better receivers out there that I would TRY to get. And if I couldn\'t get one, I still wouldn\'t pay Joe Horn top 5 pay. He\'s not worth it.

[Edited on 18/3/2005 by GumboBC]

GumboBC · 03-18-2005, 11:40 AM

Gumbo....

What I don\'t understand is that you were pointing to the irrelevance of stats before, and now you\'re using them to back your argument.
Your thing was \"what I\'ve seen with my own 2 eyes\" or something like that

My point in posting the stats of other players was to show how ridiculous it is to say Joe is a top 5 receiver based on stats.

It\'s that simple.

BlackandBlue · 03-18-2005, 11:49 AM

Simply put, no matter what Joe Horn\'s stats may be, he simply can\'t change the game like some receivers can. That doesn\'t mean it can\'t catch TDs or make some tough catches. He most certainly can.

Ok, so you\'re seperating the receivers that make the tough catches from the receivers that can change the game. In my opinion, there\'s only two receivers that are active that can change the game, and we know who they are. Then, you\'re group of the tough-catch artists, in which Horn definately falls into. But that group is small as well.

WhoDat · 03-18-2005, 12:09 PM

And probably going to the hall of fame, YES. What you fail to realize Who, is Harrison is a RARE player, rare to the tune of having the best start to a career of any receiver EVER. Same with Moss, RARE. UNIQUE. ONE OF A KIND. Joe ain\'t.

Wait a second Whoodi. Past performance don\'t matter I thought. Isn\'t that what you said? Harrison is the SAME AGE as Joe Horn. His numbers have DECLINED the last two seasons (Joe\'s were his best ever last season). The Colts have two other top flight WRs in Wayne and Stokely (the Saints don\'t). The Colts have MORE BIGGER NAME players to sign than the Saints. But it\'s OK that they give Harrison all that money b/c he\'s played great for them since he got there... but it\'s not OK for the Saints to pay Horn? I think you just shot yourself in the foot my man.

LKelley67 · 03-18-2005, 12:42 PM

props to joe

i\'ll just chime in my cap soap box 2 cents...

i think it is is irrelevant what joe has done in the past to what you negotiate in the future. this is the nfl-what-can-you-do-for-me-next-year-league. ya can\'t dump a valuable contributor like joe? if it is too much going forward you can. not only can but should. even further, if you don\'t, you will wish you would have. big contributor, team player, great guy troy brown? yeah. sorry charlie, we can keep ya if you are interested for less than a million. think the panthers are crying over not paying moose (original panther) a $10mil bonus this year or wondering if they might have mark clayton streaking down the sideline this year? wanna reward players for what they have done? go be a titans fan. they are paying over $10mil (i think closer to 20mil) this year to players no longer with the team. ya know how old n slow eddie george got with his 3.3 ypc with them in 2003? he is still getting a check from this year for $3.5mil. hey eddie, we really thank you for those good years back in the last century.

gimme troy williamson at #16 for $1mil and $6 mil extra to bid on ed hartwell if i am king over $25-30million for 4 years for 34 yr old legs. stay n play for what you signed for this year joe. pull a mccardell if ya have the balls. what do ya lose per week at 4-5mil a year? we might still get a 2nd for him next year before the trading dealine even if the rest of the world sees more the loudmouthed jive goofball rather than the tough gamer aspect we know.

saintswhodi · 03-18-2005, 12:50 PM

But it\'s OK that they give Harrison all that money b/c he\'s played great for them since he got there... but it\'s not OK for the Saints to pay Horn? I think you just shot yourself in the foot my man.

9 years and a hall of fame career are > 5 years and 4 pro bowls in my mind. How that shoots me in the foot I don\'t know. Is Reggie Wayne or Stokley better than Harrison? No. Are they good cause of Harrison? You definitely can make that case. Does Harrison make them better? You bet your sweet arse. Nice try though.

If Joe Horn were Marvin Harrison, we WOULD NOT be having this convo. But since he ain\'t, we are. That\'s all the difference anyone needs to know.

[Edited on 18/3/2005 by saintswhodi]

WhoDat · 03-18-2005, 01:08 PM

So in your opinion, Marvin Harrison will out-perform Joe Horn over the next 3 years, say, and will be more valuable to his team than Joe will be to the Saints? That\'s your take?

GumboBC · 03-18-2005, 01:09 PM

Here\'s some fast facts:

1. There were 20 receivers who went over 1000 yards receiving.
2. There were 15 receivers with 80 or more catches.
3. There were 10 receivers who caught 10 or more TDs. And five more WRs had 9 TD catches.

I\'m just not convinced that Joe is SO valuable to our offesne. Now, I\'m not saying I want him gone. I\'m just saying I think there are MANY receivers who could produce simular numbers.

Also, Donte\' had the most catches in his NFL career in 2005:

Donte\' Stallworth NO 16 58 767 47.9 45 13.2 5 13 1

1. Donte\' caught 58 passes as the number 2 receiver.
2. Donte\' caught 5 TDs as the number 2 receiver.

It\'s a big IF. But IF Donte\' was reliable enough (which he might be next year) he would be the ideal \"type\" number one receiver. Donte\' is a game changing receiver when he catches the ball. Joe Horn is not that dangerous once he catches the ball.

saintswhodi · 03-18-2005, 01:33 PM

So in your opinion, Marvin Harrison will out-perform Joe Horn over the next 3 years, say, and will be more valuable to his team than Joe will be to the Saints? That\'s your take?

Is this a serious question? I am looking for some kind of hint this question is not real. Do I think Harrison will outperform Joe in the next 3 years? Hell yeah. I check the inury reports weekly during the season, I hardly if ever see Marvin\'s name. Joe is on there EVERY WEEK, so healthwise, Marvin has already got him beat. Second, I don\'t know if they have enough $$$ to keep Wayne. Makes Harrison even more valuable. Number 3, should they lose Edge, Harrison becomes even MORE valuable. If they had lost Harrison, Wayne and Stokely wouldn\'t seem as dangerous, they prob don\'t make the playoffs. We lose Joe, well, we continue to not make the playoffs. Paying him and keeping him changes things how?

[Edited on 18/3/2005 by saintswhodi]

03-18-2005, 11:33 AM	#71
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	Who is the new BnG dealer? Either way, it can be argued that he is the best receiver that has laced \'em up for this team and there are some who are just writing him off as just another dude playing wideout. You mean a team with one playoff victory? It can also be argued that AB is the best QB we have ever had(not in my mind though). Is that something to be proud of FOR THIS TEAM? If we are talking LBs, well, we do have a history there. But offensively, that list is SHORT. Hell, it can be argued Deuce is the best RB we ever had(I think he is). Not saying much. Sorry yasoon.

03-18-2005, 11:35 AM	#72
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	Who is the new BnG dealer? I think it\'s great that Joe catches a lot of passes every year. I think it\'s great that Amani Toomer, Derick Mason, Rod Smith, and many other receivers catch a lot of passes every year. But, does that make them truly elite receivers? Not in my book. It makes them good and dependable. And that\'s nothing to sneeze at. There\'s always a place on my team of guys like that. But there\'s a big drop off between guys like Joe Horn and Derick Mason when compared to guys like Marvin Harrison, Tory Holt, and the Terrell Owens of the world. Simply put, no matter what Joe Horn\'s stats may be, he simply can\'t change the game like some receivers can. That doesn\'t mean it can\'t catch TDs or make some tough catches. He most certainly can. If we are going to pay top 5 money at the WR postion, there are better receivers out there that I would TRY to get. And if I couldn\'t get one, I still wouldn\'t pay Joe Horn top 5 pay. He\'s not worth it. [Edited on 18/3/2005 by GumboBC]
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616

03-18-2005, 11:40 AM	#73
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	Who is the new BnG dealer? Gumbo.... What I don\'t understand is that you were pointing to the irrelevance of stats before, and now you\'re using them to back your argument. Your thing was \"what I\'ve seen with my own 2 eyes\" or something like that My point in posting the stats of other players was to show how ridiculous it is to say Joe is a top 5 receiver based on stats. It\'s that simple.
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616

03-18-2005, 11:49 AM	#74
BlackandBlue Kinder, gentler Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: dirty south Posts: 3,889	Who is the new BnG dealer? Simply put, no matter what Joe Horn\'s stats may be, he simply can\'t change the game like some receivers can. That doesn\'t mean it can\'t catch TDs or make some tough catches. He most certainly can. Ok, so you\'re seperating the receivers that make the tough catches from the receivers that can change the game. In my opinion, there\'s only two receivers that are active that can change the game, and we know who they are. Then, you\'re group of the tough-catch artists, in which Horn definately falls into. But that group is small as well.

03-18-2005, 12:09 PM	#75
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	Who is the new BnG dealer? And probably going to the hall of fame, YES. What you fail to realize Who, is Harrison is a RARE player, rare to the tune of having the best start to a career of any receiver EVER. Same with Moss, RARE. UNIQUE. ONE OF A KIND. Joe ain\'t. Wait a second Whoodi. Past performance don\'t matter I thought. Isn\'t that what you said? Harrison is the SAME AGE as Joe Horn. His numbers have DECLINED the last two seasons (Joe\'s were his best ever last season). The Colts have two other top flight WRs in Wayne and Stokely (the Saints don\'t). The Colts have MORE BIGGER NAME players to sign than the Saints. But it\'s OK that they give Harrison all that money b/c he\'s played great for them since he got there... but it\'s not OK for the Saints to pay Horn? I think you just shot yourself in the foot my man.
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. ThatÃ¢Â€Â™s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans SaintsÃ¢Â€Â™ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse \"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

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03-18-2005, 12:42 PM	#76
LKelley67 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: baton rouge Posts: 2,540	Who is the new BnG dealer? props to joe i\'ll just chime in my cap soap box 2 cents... i think it is is irrelevant what joe has done in the past to what you negotiate in the future. this is the nfl-what-can-you-do-for-me-next-year-league. ya can\'t dump a valuable contributor like joe? if it is too much going forward you can. not only can but should. even further, if you don\'t, you will wish you would have. big contributor, team player, great guy troy brown? yeah. sorry charlie, we can keep ya if you are interested for less than a million. think the panthers are crying over not paying moose (original panther) a $10mil bonus this year or wondering if they might have mark clayton streaking down the sideline this year? wanna reward players for what they have done? go be a titans fan. they are paying over $10mil (i think closer to 20mil) this year to players no longer with the team. ya know how old n slow eddie george got with his 3.3 ypc with them in 2003? he is still getting a check from this year for $3.5mil. hey eddie, we really thank you for those good years back in the last century. gimme troy williamson at #16 for $1mil and $6 mil extra to bid on ed hartwell if i am king over $25-30million for 4 years for 34 yr old legs. stay n play for what you signed for this year joe. pull a mccardell if ya have the balls. what do ya lose per week at 4-5mil a year? we might still get a 2nd for him next year before the trading dealine even if the rest of the world sees more the loudmouthed jive goofball rather than the tough gamer aspect we know.

03-18-2005, 12:50 PM	#77
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	Who is the new BnG dealer? But it\'s OK that they give Harrison all that money b/c he\'s played great for them since he got there... but it\'s not OK for the Saints to pay Horn? I think you just shot yourself in the foot my man. 9 years and a hall of fame career are > 5 years and 4 pro bowls in my mind. How that shoots me in the foot I don\'t know. Is Reggie Wayne or Stokley better than Harrison? No. Are they good cause of Harrison? You definitely can make that case. Does Harrison make them better? You bet your sweet arse. Nice try though. If Joe Horn were Marvin Harrison, we WOULD NOT be having this convo. But since he ain\'t, we are. That\'s all the difference anyone needs to know. [Edited on 18/3/2005 by saintswhodi]

03-18-2005, 01:08 PM	#78
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	Who is the new BnG dealer? So in your opinion, Marvin Harrison will out-perform Joe Horn over the next 3 years, say, and will be more valuable to his team than Joe will be to the Saints? That\'s your take?
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631

03-18-2005, 01:09 PM	#79
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	Who is the new BnG dealer? Here\'s some fast facts: 1. There were 20 receivers who went over 1000 yards receiving. 2. There were 15 receivers with 80 or more catches. 3. There were 10 receivers who caught 10 or more TDs. And five more WRs had 9 TD catches. I\'m just not convinced that Joe is SO valuable to our offesne. Now, I\'m not saying I want him gone. I\'m just saying I think there are MANY receivers who could produce simular numbers. Also, Donte\' had the most catches in his NFL career in 2005: Donte\' Stallworth NO 16 58 767 47.9 45 13.2 5 13 1 1. Donte\' caught 58 passes as the number 2 receiver. 2. Donte\' caught 5 TDs as the number 2 receiver. It\'s a big IF. But IF Donte\' was reliable enough (which he might be next year) he would be the ideal \"type\" number one receiver. Donte\' is a game changing receiver when he catches the ball. Joe Horn is not that dangerous once he catches the ball.
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616

03-18-2005, 01:33 PM	#80
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	Who is the new BnG dealer? So in your opinion, Marvin Harrison will out-perform Joe Horn over the next 3 years, say, and will be more valuable to his team than Joe will be to the Saints? That\'s your take? Is this a serious question? I am looking for some kind of hint this question is not real. Do I think Harrison will outperform Joe in the next 3 years? Hell yeah. I check the inury reports weekly during the season, I hardly if ever see Marvin\'s name. Joe is on there EVERY WEEK, so healthwise, Marvin has already got him beat. Second, I don\'t know if they have enough $$$ to keep Wayne. Makes Harrison even more valuable. Number 3, should they lose Edge, Harrison becomes even MORE valuable. If they had lost Harrison, Wayne and Stokely wouldn\'t seem as dangerous, they prob don\'t make the playoffs. We lose Joe, well, we continue to not make the playoffs. Paying him and keeping him changes things how? [Edited on 18/3/2005 by saintswhodi]