JKool

I hear ya, ya.

WhoDat

ROFLMAO... Seriously, it took me 5 minutes to recover from that... LOL. Whew.


J - First off, congrats on your promotion. Welcome aboard my friend! Halo and Joe are showing they are better FO managers than are Benson and Loomis - a nice FA pick up.

As to this statement, you make a good point, but there\'s a flip side to that coin. The Saints already, IMO, have a reputation for for letting talent walk when they get expensive. Sammy Knight, if I remember correctly, voided the last year of his contract and walked away. He said in an interview that he knew the Saints weren\'t serious about keeping him b/c if they were they would have already made an offer. He said that at the time, the trend was to let \"expensive\" players leave - I think at the time he cited Johnson and Glover...

I think that\'s a valid point. I don\'t want the Saints to just give the players what they want, not by any means. However, what message is sent to the players when guys like Tebucky Jones and Aaron Brooks get top five money without having proven a thing, and guys like Joe Horn or Sammy Knight - leaders both by their play and by their attitudes - get stiffed when it comes time to renegotiate? Think McKenzie, Deuce, Bentley, Grant, etc. aren\'t seeing that kind of stuff and taking note? Think that may change their posture when they come to the table? Think that might affect the Saints\' ability to sign players through FA?

I\'m not supporting a Horn contract for top 5 money, but even if he were to get one, I don\'t know how much it hurts in regard to other players negotiating. I mean, if Deuce says, \"Horn got top 5, I want top 5,\" the organization\'s response can be \"Horn produced top five numbers on the field. You didn\'t.\" On the flip side, young guys like Deuce or Bentley or Grant might look at the opposite situation and say \"Man, Joe Horn went to the Pro Bowl 4 of the last 5 years, got paid half of what other guys who produced like that got paid, did everything this team asked and more, and they still won\'t give the guy a contract?! Screw renegotiating, they can franchise me or I\'ll hit the market and see what I can get.\"


Here\'s one. My guess is there\'s a lot more.


I don\'t understand this stance. This is what confuses me. What matters? How much talent a guy has, or how well he produces on the field? I think our Saints have proven time and again that talent means nothing unless it translates into results. If that\'s the case, who cares if Moss or Owens or Harrison is more talented than Horn? If Horn is producing the same (or as last season, BETTER) results on the field, who cares if other guys are more talented? Like I said, Stallworth is more talented - who is for letting him play the number 1 spot and paying him more than Horn? That\'s assinine.

\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. That’s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans Saints’ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse


\"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

GumboBC

You don\'t understand because you REFUSE to understand, WhoDat.

Any conversation about Joe Horn begins with Joe Horn wanting top 5 pay. And that comes from Joe Horn himself.

Is Joe Horn worth that much money?

WhoDat, BlackandBlue, and many others want to point to Joe Horn\'s stats and say he is indeed a top 5 receiever.

But, there are all kind of receivers in the NFL who have simular or better stats.

Here are Rod Smith\'s stats. Is he a top 5 receiver also?
Rod Smith
1998 Denver Broncos 16 16 86 1222
1999 Denver Broncos 15 15 79 1020
2000 Denver Broncos 16 16 100 1602
2001 Denver Broncos 15 14 113 1343
2002 Denver Broncos 16 16 89 1027
2003 Denver Broncos 15 15 74 845
2004 Denver Broncos 16 16 79 1144

Here are Derick Mason\'s stats. He\'s top 5 too?
Derick Mason:
2001 Tennessee Titans 15 15 73 1128
2002 Tennessee Titans 14 14 79 1012
2003 Tennessee Titans 16 16 95 1303
2004 Tennessee Titans 16 16 96 1168


Here are Tory Holt\'s stats. Top 5 too?
Tory Holt:
2000 STL 16 15 82 1635
2001 STL 16 15 81 1363
2002 STL 16 12 91 1302
2003 STL 16 15 117 1696
2004 STL 16 16 94 1372

Here are Amani Toomer\'s stats. Top 5 too?
Amani Toomer:
1999 New York Giants 16 16 79 1183
2000 New York Giants 16 14 78 1094
2001 New York Giants 16 14 72 1054
2002 New York Giants 16 16 82 1343
2003 New York Giants 16 16 63 1057

Here are Issac Bruce\'s stats. Top 5 too?
Issac Bruce:
1999 St. Louis Rams 16 16 77 1165
2000 St. Louis Rams 16 16 87 1471
2001 St. Louis Rams 16 16 64 1106
2002 St. Louis Rams 16 16 79 1075
2003 St. Louis Rams 15 15 69 981
2004 St. Louis Rams 16 16 89 1292

Who here would pay Issac Bruce top 5 money?
He\'s got the stats to back it up just like Joe Horn.

Would you pay Rod Smith top 5 money? He\'s got the stats to back it up.

Would you pay Derick Mason top 5 money? He\'s got the stats just like Joe Horn.

Let\'s face it. Stats are nice. Lots of receivers have stats like Joe Horn. But stats are not what makes a player great.

Bottom line: I can make the same arguement for many receivers and say they are top 5 based on stats.

WhoDat, do you disagree with that?

BlackandBlue

Where did I post pointing to Horn\'s stats?

JKool

I\'m pointing at his stats.

GumboBC

Hey, I don\'t want to put words in your mouth B&B. I do not think you ever pointed to Joe Horns\'s stats now that I think about it. So, my apologies.

However, WhoDat and others HAVE made the arguement that Joes stats makes him one of the truly elite receivers in the NFL.

Hey, Rod Smith has about the same stats. So do Issac Bruce, Derick Mason, and Amani Toomer.

At some point, you\'ve got to say all those guys CAN\'T be top 5 guys. But if you look at stats ... you can say ALL of them deserve top 5 money. It just doesn\'t make sense to me.

I just can\'t see how Rod Smith deserves top 5 pay. But, hey, look at this.

Rod Smith
1998 Denver Broncos 16 16 86 1222
1999 Denver Broncos 15 15 79 1020
2000 Denver Broncos 16 16 100 1602
2001 Denver Broncos 15 14 113 1343
2002 Denver Broncos 16 16 89 1027
2003 Denver Broncos 15 15 74 845

Rod Smith has 2 seasons with over 100-catches. Joe Horn has NEVER done that. You\'ve got to say Rod Smith is better than Joe Horn if you go off stats? Right or wrong?

I really don\'t know what you think about the Joe Horn situation. And I\'m being honest.




[Edited on 18/3/2005 by GumboBC]

BlackandBlue

Rod Smith is scheduled to make $3.5 million this year, $3 million next year, $5.5 million in 2007, and $6.5 million in 2008. At one time, I would have put Smith in the top 5, but not anymore.

Isaac Bruce is scheduled to make $5.8 million this year and $6.5 million next year. This is the back-end of his contract, so all those years of making double the league minimum are somewhat justified (2000-2002)


[Edited on 18/3/2005 by BlackandBlue]

WhoDat

There\'s a key difference that you fail to recognize, or simply discount as worthless, like so many other relevant points that you choose to ignore.

Joe Horn has been deemed one of the three best WRs in the NFC (so in the top 6 in the NFL) by NFL coaches, players, fans, and media analysts four of the last five years.

I THINK Harrison can say that, as can Moss and Owens. Maybe Holt can. Who else can?

What that says to me is that it isn\'t a crazy idea to believe that (a) Joe Horn performs every game at a level amongst the best in the league, (b) he is extremely valuable to his franchise, or (c) that there is something more than just good stats - that the guy comes through in the clutch, whether he\'s one of ten targets or the only target playing on a bum leg.

The bottom line is, those types of guys are hard to find. Maybe you can say that Deuce is more valuable than Horn. Going forward into the future that\'s a safe assumption. However, over the last 5 years you would be hard pressed to find a single guy more valuable to the New Orleans Saints. You don\'t simply dump a guy like that.

Now you can twist things all you want, but my position remains the same. I am NOT suggesting that Horn should get a huge signing bonus, guaranteed money, or a huge salary. I\'m saying that he deserves a contract with large escalation clauses that kick in incentives to pay him commisserate to his play. I\'m saying his contract should be back loaded, although the guy deserves some sort of bonus up front.

It feels to me that people are just unhappy about paying players. There has been talk on this board in the past (I was included) where people have voiced discontent with players not performing up to their pay. That\'s a recurring problem with this team. Finally, when you get a guy who out-performs it, you want to stiff him. So players should play out their contracts and except low-ball salaries, but teams should have the right to cut them at any point and never have to pay them their real value? C\'mon. You guys act like the Saints are the only team considering rewarding a player for years of great service. Do you guys think that with A HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS sunk in to Manning and contract years coming up for Pollard, Edge, Wayne, and Stokely the Colts decided that Marvin Harrison was their future and they NEEDED to sign him to a 7 year nearly 70 MILLION DOLLAR contract?

\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. That’s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans Saints’ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse


\"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

yasoon

Gumbo....

What I don\'t understand is that you were pointing to the irrelevance of stats before, and now you\'re using them to back your argument.
Your thing was \"what I\'ve seen with my own 2 eyes\" or something like that.

Now you\'re saying that Rod Smith\'s 100 catch seasons may make him better than Horn (based on stats).

The answer to you is, yes, Rod Smith has been a top receiver over the last few years. He is a consistent guy who flies under the radar because he is pretty low key.

You listed guys that I think are mostly top 10. The question becomes the ordering at the top, which is what I was telling you yesterday.

There are the guys who most experts would put above Horn:

Moss/TO/Holt/your boy Marvin

And then there are the guys who alot of people would argue for that number 5 slot. I don\'t think it\'s outlandish to put Joe Horn there. It\'s an opinion.

So here\'s the next tier of guys (excluding Horn):

Rod Smith/Moose/Bruce/Mason:

So, there\'s 8 guys. Add in Horn and Toomer(who I know is not better than Horn and Michigan is my team) and you have a top 10....right? Maybe Javon Walker is a close 11th, maybe he\'s better than Amani. You also have to think about Ward, whose numbers may not be as high, but he has sticky hands, blocks his butt off and I would take on my team ANY day.

Either way, I think Horn is at least equal to any of the other guys in that 5 slot.....it\'s a matter of opinion and I think 4 out of 5 Pro Bowls tells you that the prevailing opinion is that Horn is 5-7 in most experts\' minds. (How many receivers go to the Pro Bowl every year......6-8?...I\'m not sure.)

So, with this logic (which I think makes sense), is it crazy for a guy with the ego of a pro wideout to look at this and say he\'s a top five guy? I don\'t think it is.

Again, I\'m not saying that the Saints should foot this bill. I posted last night that it may be time for Horn to go with the situation deteriorating and no signs of improvement in sight. They could have easily had the foresight to lock him up for 2-3 years before last year without overpaying.

I think Horn has 2 years of 80-90 catches and double digit TDs left in him. Beyond that, it\'s a crapshoot and I think he wants security past that time period, making him close to unsignable. I put some of that on Horn\'s ego and some of it on our beancounter\'s inability to take care of this business before now. Either way, it can be argued that he is the best receiver that has laced \'em up for this team and there are some who are just writing him off as just another dude playing wideout.

saintswhodi

1996 Indianapolis Colts 16 15 64 836 13.1 41 8 15 1 43
1997 Indianapolis Colts 16 15 73 866 11.9 44 6 9 2 46
1998 Indianapolis Colts 12 12 59 776 13.2 61 7 9 2 40
1999 Indianapolis Colts 16 16 115 1663 14.5 57 12 24 7 79
2000 Indianapolis Colts 16 16 102 1413 13.9 78 14 16 4 70
2001 Indianapolis Colts 16 16 109 1524 14.0 68 15 19 6 75
2002 Indianapolis Colts 16 16 143 1722 12.0 69 11 22 4 92
2003 Indianapolis Colts 15 15 94 1272 13.5 79 10 17 4 60
2004 Indianapolis Colts 16 16 86 1113 12.9 59 15 16 3 63
TOTAL 139 137 845 11185 13.2 79 98 147 33 56

And probably going to the hall of fame, YES. What you fail to realize Who, is Harrison is a RARE player, rare to the tune of having the best start to a career of any receiver EVER. Same with Moss, RARE. UNIQUE. ONE OF A KIND. Joe ain\'t.

But i\'ll ask you this, since you say if Joe says no to this, is it okay to get rid of him then? Will you be satisfied enough that we can do without an overpaid Joe Horn at that point? Where do you draw the line since you aregue so hard for keeping him like he is a Marvin Harrison or something. You don\'t afree to paying him top 5, good for Who. Joe doesn\'t agree with that. So if he says no to an offer similar to your idea, can we let him ride then?