You're Sean Payton

Tobias-Reiper · 01-09-2017, 09:04 AM

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido

I simply don't get this fascination with Wade Phillips.

So, as DC, the past decade:
2006 San Diego Chargers defense #7 pts #10 yds
2011 Houston Texans defense #4 pts #2 yrds
2012 Houston Texans defense #9 pts #7 yrds
2013 Houston Texans defense #24 pts #7 yrds
2014 Denver Broncos defense #16 pts #3 yrds
2015 Denver Broncos defense #4 pts #1 yrds
2016 Denver Broncos defense #4 pts #4 yrds

It's not "fascination". It is that Wade Phillips is a well established DC, with a track record of success with different teams, and as of right now, he's available. Except for 2013, all of the listed defenses would probably have put the Saints in the SB.

There is no way Denver would voluntarily cut ties with Phillips

Cuba Gooding Jr. would like to say something...

Why would Phillips ever consider leaving the perfect setup to go to a team with nothing in place to support his style of play?

And you know there is nothing in NO to support his style of play because...?

... it makes no sense for the Saints to once again ditch a base defensive scheme that they have spent the past two years populating to once again start over. That would guarantee another two or more years of defensive struggles just due to instability. That is the last thing the Saints need.

And the guarantee that the Saints defense is not going to continue its struggle of the past 6-7 years is...?

If y'all want some sort of outlandish dream of a defensive savior, why not one that wouldn't totally trash what promise the defense has finally began showing?

I don't want, as you so dramatically put, any sort of "outlandish dream of a defensive savior". Here is the deal: the Saints have Drew Brees for 2 years? 3 years? After Drew is gone, you can kiss those customary 5,000 yd seasons goodbye. Wade Phillips is a known commodity at DC, and as of right now, available. So, all things equal, the question becomes, do you go with what what promise the defense began showing, or with the established commodity?

halloween 65 · 01-09-2017, 09:18 AM

Originally Posted by Tobias-Reiper

So, as DC, the past decade:
2006 San Diego Chargers defense #7 pts #10 yds
2011 Houston Texans defense #4 pts #2 yrds
2012 Houston Texans defense #9 pts #7 yrds
2013 Houston Texans defense #24 pts #7 yrds
2014 Denver Broncos defense #16 pts #3 yrds
2015 Denver Broncos defense #4 pts #1 yrds
2016 Denver Broncos defense #4 pts #4 yrds

It's not "fascination". It is that Wade Phillips is a well established DC, with a track record of success with different teams, and as of right now, he's available. Except for 2013, all of the listed defenses would probably have put the Saints in the SB.

Cuba Gooding Jr. would like to say something...

And you know there is nothing in NO to support his style of play because...?

And the guarantee that the Saints defense is not going to continue its struggle of the past 6-7 years is...?

If y'all want some sort of outlandish dream of a defensive savior, why not one that wouldn't totally trash what promise the defense has finally began showing?[/QUOTE]
I don't want, as you so dramatically put, any sort of "outlandish dream of a defensive savior". Here is the deal: the Saints have Drew Brees for 2 years? 3 years? After Drew is gone, you can kiss those customary 5,000 yd seasons goodbye. Wade Phillips is a known commodity at DC, and as of right now, available. So, all things equal, the question becomes, do you go with what what promise the defense began showing, or with the established commodity?[/QUOTE]

Exactly. A proven DC over a ? anyday. I just don't understand the love for an unproven Allen. Payton surely likes his puppets while he's pulling their strings.

AsylumGuido · 01-09-2017, 09:29 AM

Originally Posted by Tobias-Reiper

So, as DC, the past decade:
2006 San Diego Chargers defense #7 pts #10 yds
2011 Houston Texans defense #4 pts #2 yrds
2012 Houston Texans defense #9 pts #7 yrds
2013 Houston Texans defense #24 pts #7 yrds
2014 Denver Broncos defense #16 pts #3 yrds
2015 Denver Broncos defense #4 pts #1 yrds
2016 Denver Broncos defense #4 pts #4 yrds

It's not "fascination". It is that Wade Phillips is a well established DC, with a track record of success with different teams, and as of right now, he's available. Except for 2013, all of the listed defenses would probably have put the Saints in the SB.

Cuba Gooding Jr. would like to say something...

And you know there is nothing in NO to support his style of play because...?

And the guarantee that the Saints defense is not going to continue its struggle of the past 6-7 years is...?

If y'all want some sort of outlandish dream of a defensive savior, why not one that wouldn't totally trash what promise the defense has finally began showing?[/QUOTE]
I don't want, as you so dramatically put, any sort of "outlandish dream of a defensive savior". Here is the deal: the Saints have Drew Brees for 2 years? 3 years? After Drew is gone, you can kiss those customary 5,000 yd seasons goodbye. Wade Phillips is a known commodity at DC, and as of right now, available. So, all things equal, the question becomes, do you go with what what promise the defense began showing, or with the established commodity?[/QUOTE]

No. You TOTALLY missed my point. Wade Phillips isn't coming to the Saints. He has no reason to come to the Saints. I agree completely that when given enough time and the right mix of players, Phillips can put a very good defense on the field. But getting him is a pipe dream. If there was any shot in hell of his coming to the Saints, Dennis Allen would have been on the same bus out of town as Vitt and the others. The Saints would have just as much of a chance of having Bill Belichick becoming their next DC as Phillips.

The "fascination" to which I am referring to is the going on and on about something that has no shot of happening.

dizzle88 · 01-09-2017, 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido

The "fascination" to which I am referring to is the going on and on about something that has no shot of happening.

However, when someone else says a comment such as this, you tell them they have no clue about what goes in the Saints organisation and therefore we cannot comment on the matter.

How do you know this has no shot of happening?

Payton is on the hot seat, he may go for broke in an effort to save his job.

AsylumGuido · 01-09-2017, 11:24 AM

Originally Posted by dizzle88

However, when someone else says a comment such as this, you tell them they have no clue about what goes in the Saints organisation and therefore we cannot comment on the matter.

How do you know this has no shot of happening?

Payton is on the hot seat, he may go for broke in an effort to save his job.

First of all, you are assuming, with no basis, that Payton is on a hot seat. There is absolutely no indication of this. He was given a five year extension AFTER coming of two years 7-9 records. This past season his offensive was once again #1 in the league, but his defense was decimated. Following the week 16 game, Tom Benson came into Payton's post game conference and announced "great coach, great game". That doesn't sound like a coach "on the hot seat". You are basing everything on the danger of his losing his job. That's nowhere close to happening as long as Tom and/or Gayle owns the team.

Secondly, if Payton had any intention of replacing the current DC he would have let him go at the same time as the other coaches. This is common sense.

Thirdly, the Saints have been working on filling out a 4-3 defense since the end of the 2015 season. Would it make any sense to trash all of that work and, once again do exactly what created the 7-9 2014-15 seasons, by starting over from scratch to find the personnel to fit the 3-4 scheme that Wade Phillips uses exclusively? No. That makes no sense whatsoever.

AsylumGuido · 01-09-2017, 11:29 AM

If, and that is a big IF, Wade Phillips does leave Denver, the obvious landing spot would be with the Raiders. The Raiders already have the 3-4 personnel in place, but are apparently very dissatisfied with the way Ken Norton, Jr. has handled the squad.

Tobias-Reiper · 01-09-2017, 01:07 PM

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido

No. You TOTALLY missed my point.

Oh, I did not miss your point AT ALL. Goes with the theme.

Wade Phillips isn't coming to the Saints. He has no reason to come to the Saints. I agree completely that when given enough time and the right mix of players, Phillips can put a very good defense on the field. But getting him is a pipe dream. If there was any shot in hell of his coming to the Saints, Dennis Allen would have been on the same bus out of town as Vitt and the others.

As far as everyone knows, Wade Phillips is not under contract. And we don't know what's the train thought in Denver, or how their dealings with Wade, if any, are going. However, we do know what large amounts of cash do.

The Saints would have just as much of a chance of having Bill Belichick becoming their next DC as Phillips.

That a false equivalency. For starters, Phillips is not under contract right now, Belichick is. Belichick has a long history of HC'ing with the Pats, Phillips has DC'd in 2 teams the last 6 years.

The "fascination" to which I am referring to is the going on and on about something that has no shot of happening.

Says you. Again, Phillips is not under contract. He can talk to any team he wants to. We don't know the situation in Denver. Maybe they are eyeing a HC who wants his own staff, DC included... we don't know. Although we know what large amounts of cash can do in such situations.

AsylumGuido · 01-09-2017, 01:53 PM

Originally Posted by Tobias-Reiper

Oh, I did not miss your point AT ALL. Goes with the theme.

As far as everyone knows, Wade Phillips is not under contract. And we don't know what's the train thought in Denver, or how their dealings with Wade, if any, are going. However, we do know what large amounts of cash do.

That a false equivalency. For starters, Phillips is not under contract right now, Belichick is. Belichick has a long history of HC'ing with the Pats, Phillips has DC'd in 2 teams the last 6 years.

Says you. Again, Phillips is not under contract. He can talk to any team he wants to. We don't know the situation in Denver. Maybe they are eyeing a HC who wants his own staff, DC included... we don't know. Although we know what large amounts of cash can do in such situations.

The point that you are missing is that Phillips' scheme doesn't match the Saints personnel at all. Payton has gone down that street before. It will not happen again, even IF Wade was willing to go to a team with no players to fit his scheme. Is it technically possible? Yes, but it makes no sense whatsoever for any of the parties involved. Personally I would be shocked if Elway let him go.

Tobias-Reiper · 01-09-2017, 02:41 PM

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido

The point that you are missing is that Phillips' scheme doesn't match the Saints personnel at all.

Oh, so yet another point I am missing... ok.

What makes you so sure Phillips' scheme doesn't match Saints personnel at all?
Being how historically bad the Saints defense has been the past few years, a very valid argument can be made that the Saints either don't have the personnel to run what they want to run, or they have no idea what to do with the personnel they have.

Any other point I am missing?

AsylumGuido · 01-09-2017, 05:09 PM

Originally Posted by Tobias-Reiper

Oh, so yet another point I am missing... ok.

What makes you so sure Phillips' scheme doesn't match Saints personnel at all?
Being how historically bad the Saints defense has been the past few years, a very valid argument can be made that the Saints either don't have the personnel to run what they want to run, or they have no idea what to do with the personnel they have.

Any other point I am missing?

First of all, as halloween pointed out, our two, and perhaps as many as our FOUR best defensive players are not 3-4 type players. As he mentioned, we would have to get rid of Cam Jordan and Kenny Vacarro and not retain Fairley. He also assumes that Rankins, who looked like a stud in the 4-3, could seamlessly convert to a NT. He would be wasted at that position.

Now, as for the last few years, in 2012, Coach Spagnuolo attempted to pigeon hole players that were primarily 3-4 players into his strict 4-3. It was a disaster. In comes Rob Ryan in 2013. As he had done previously at Dallas, he introduced a stripped down version of his 3-4. There was enough 3-4 personnel to make it work that first year. In 2014 he fully implemented his defense which to say it is complex is an understatement. The defense looked lost. Some of the players were still more suited to a 4-3, such as Jordan. In 2015 Payton saw that the Ryan experiment wasn't working and brought in Allen. Allen quickly started using players to their strengths. This past season you know what happened with the injuries. Allen is flexible in his scheming, not like Phillips who is strictly a 3-4 coach.

01-09-2017, 09:04 AM	#1
Tobias-Reiper Merces Letifer Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 4,161	Re: You're Sean Payton Originally Posted by AsylumGuido I simply don't get this fascination with Wade Phillips. So, as DC, the past decade: 2006 San Diego Chargers defense #7 pts #10 yds 2011 Houston Texans defense #4 pts #2 yrds 2012 Houston Texans defense #9 pts #7 yrds 2013 Houston Texans defense #24 pts #7 yrds 2014 Denver Broncos defense #16 pts #3 yrds 2015 Denver Broncos defense #4 pts #1 yrds 2016 Denver Broncos defense #4 pts #4 yrds It's not "fascination". It is that Wade Phillips is a well established DC, with a track record of success with different teams, and as of right now, he's available. Except for 2013, all of the listed defenses would probably have put the Saints in the SB. There is no way Denver would voluntarily cut ties with Phillips Cuba Gooding Jr. would like to say something... Why would Phillips ever consider leaving the perfect setup to go to a team with nothing in place to support his style of play? And you know there is nothing in NO to support his style of play because...? ... it makes no sense for the Saints to once again ditch a base defensive scheme that they have spent the past two years populating to once again start over. That would guarantee another two or more years of defensive struggles just due to instability. That is the last thing the Saints need. And the guarantee that the Saints defense is not going to continue its struggle of the past 6-7 years is...? If y'all want some sort of outlandish dream of a defensive savior, why not one that wouldn't totally trash what promise the defense has finally began showing? I don't want, as you so dramatically put, any sort of "outlandish dream of a defensive savior". Here is the deal: the Saints have Drew Brees for 2 years? 3 years? After Drew is gone, you can kiss those customary 5,000 yd seasons goodbye. Wade Phillips is a known commodity at DC, and as of right now, available. So, all things equal, the question becomes, do you go with what what promise the defense began showing, or with the established commodity? dizzle88 and halloween 65 like this.
	'Cause the simple man pays the thrills, the bills and the pills that kill Last edited by Tobias-Reiper; 01-09-2017 at 12:45 PM.. Reason: typos, syntax, etc

01-09-2017, 09:29 AM	#3
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,622	Re: You're Sean Payton Originally Posted by Tobias-Reiper So, as DC, the past decade: 2006 San Diego Chargers defense #7 pts #10 yds 2011 Houston Texans defense #4 pts #2 yrds 2012 Houston Texans defense #9 pts #7 yrds 2013 Houston Texans defense #24 pts #7 yrds 2014 Denver Broncos defense #16 pts #3 yrds 2015 Denver Broncos defense #4 pts #1 yrds 2016 Denver Broncos defense #4 pts #4 yrds It's not "fascination". It is that Wade Phillips is a well established DC, with a track record of success with different teams, and as of right now, he's available. Except for 2013, all of the listed defenses would probably have put the Saints in the SB. Cuba Gooding Jr. would like to say something... And you know there is nothing in NO to support his style of play because...? And the guarantee that the Saints defense is not going to continue its struggle of the past 6-7 years is...? If y'all want some sort of outlandish dream of a defensive savior, why not one that wouldn't totally trash what promise the defense has finally began showing?[/QUOTE] I don't want, as you so dramatically put, any sort of "outlandish dream of a defensive savior". Here is the deal: the Saints have Drew Brees for 2 years? 3 years? After Drew is gone, you can kiss those customary 5,000 yd seasons goodbye. Wade Phillips is a known commodity at DC, and as of right now, available. So, all things equal, the question becomes, do you go with what what promise the defense began showing, or with the established commodity?[/QUOTE] No. You TOTALLY missed my point. Wade Phillips isn't coming to the Saints. He has no reason to come to the Saints. I agree completely that when given enough time and the right mix of players, Phillips can put a very good defense on the field. But getting him is a pipe dream. If there was any shot in hell of his coming to the Saints, Dennis Allen would have been on the same bus out of town as Vitt and the others. The Saints would have just as much of a chance of having Bill Belichick becoming their next DC as Phillips. The "fascination" to which I am referring to is the going on and on about something that has no shot of happening. SaintFanInATLHELL likes this.
	“The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.” — Winston Churchill

01-09-2017, 11:24 AM	#5
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,622	Re: You're Sean Payton Originally Posted by dizzle88 However, when someone else says a comment such as this, you tell them they have no clue about what goes in the Saints organisation and therefore we cannot comment on the matter. How do you know this has no shot of happening? Payton is on the hot seat, he may go for broke in an effort to save his job. First of all, you are assuming, with no basis, that Payton is on a hot seat. There is absolutely no indication of this. He was given a five year extension AFTER coming of two years 7-9 records. This past season his offensive was once again #1 in the league, but his defense was decimated. Following the week 16 game, Tom Benson came into Payton's post game conference and announced "great coach, great game". That doesn't sound like a coach "on the hot seat". You are basing everything on the danger of his losing his job. That's nowhere close to happening as long as Tom and/or Gayle owns the team. Secondly, if Payton had any intention of replacing the current DC he would have let him go at the same time as the other coaches. This is common sense. Thirdly, the Saints have been working on filling out a 4-3 defense since the end of the 2015 season. Would it make any sense to trash all of that work and, once again do exactly what created the 7-9 2014-15 seasons, by starting over from scratch to find the personnel to fit the 3-4 scheme that Wade Phillips uses exclusively? No. That makes no sense whatsoever. SaintFanInATLHELL likes this.
	“The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.” — Winston Churchill

01-09-2017, 11:29 AM	#6
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,622	Re: You're Sean Payton If, and that is a big IF, Wade Phillips does leave Denver, the obvious landing spot would be with the Raiders. The Raiders already have the 3-4 personnel in place, but are apparently very dissatisfied with the way Ken Norton, Jr. has handled the squad.

01-09-2017, 01:07 PM	#7
Tobias-Reiper Merces Letifer Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 4,161	Re: You're Sean Payton Originally Posted by AsylumGuido No. You TOTALLY missed my point. Oh, I did not miss your point AT ALL. Goes with the theme. Wade Phillips isn't coming to the Saints. He has no reason to come to the Saints. I agree completely that when given enough time and the right mix of players, Phillips can put a very good defense on the field. But getting him is a pipe dream. If there was any shot in hell of his coming to the Saints, Dennis Allen would have been on the same bus out of town as Vitt and the others. As far as everyone knows, Wade Phillips is not under contract. And we don't know what's the train thought in Denver, or how their dealings with Wade, if any, are going. However, we do know what large amounts of cash do. The Saints would have just as much of a chance of having Bill Belichick becoming their next DC as Phillips. That a false equivalency. For starters, Phillips is not under contract right now, Belichick is. Belichick has a long history of HC'ing with the Pats, Phillips has DC'd in 2 teams the last 6 years. The "fascination" to which I am referring to is the going on and on about something that has no shot of happening. Says you. Again, Phillips is not under contract. He can talk to any team he wants to. We don't know the situation in Denver. Maybe they are eyeing a HC who wants his own staff, DC included... we don't know. Although we know what large amounts of cash can do in such situations.
	'Cause the simple man pays the thrills, the bills and the pills that kill

01-09-2017, 09:18 AM	#2
halloween 65 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Grand Haven, Michigan by way of a little Mississippi River town in Louisiana Posts: 5,893	Re: You're Sean Payton Originally Posted by Tobias-Reiper So, as DC, the past decade: 2006 San Diego Chargers defense #7 pts #10 yds 2011 Houston Texans defense #4 pts #2 yrds 2012 Houston Texans defense #9 pts #7 yrds 2013 Houston Texans defense #24 pts #7 yrds 2014 Denver Broncos defense #16 pts #3 yrds 2015 Denver Broncos defense #4 pts #1 yrds 2016 Denver Broncos defense #4 pts #4 yrds It's not "fascination". It is that Wade Phillips is a well established DC, with a track record of success with different teams, and as of right now, he's available. Except for 2013, all of the listed defenses would probably have put the Saints in the SB. Cuba Gooding Jr. would like to say something... And you know there is nothing in NO to support his style of play because...? And the guarantee that the Saints defense is not going to continue its struggle of the past 6-7 years is...? If y'all want some sort of outlandish dream of a defensive savior, why not one that wouldn't totally trash what promise the defense has finally began showing?[/QUOTE] I don't want, as you so dramatically put, any sort of "outlandish dream of a defensive savior". Here is the deal: the Saints have Drew Brees for 2 years? 3 years? After Drew is gone, you can kiss those customary 5,000 yd seasons goodbye. Wade Phillips is a known commodity at DC, and as of right now, available. So, all things equal, the question becomes, do you go with what what promise the defense began showing, or with the established commodity?[/QUOTE] Exactly. A proven DC over a ? anyday. I just don't understand the love for an unproven Allen. Payton surely likes his puppets while he's pulling their strings.

01-09-2017, 10:48 AM	#4
dizzle88 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 11,534	Re: You're Sean Payton Originally Posted by AsylumGuido The "fascination" to which I am referring to is the going on and on about something that has no shot of happening. However, when someone else says a comment such as this, you tell them they have no clue about what goes in the Saints organisation and therefore we cannot comment on the matter. How do you know this has no shot of happening? Payton is on the hot seat, he may go for broke in an effort to save his job.

01-09-2017, 01:53 PM	#8
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,622	Re: You're Sean Payton Originally Posted by Tobias-Reiper Oh, I did not miss your point AT ALL. Goes with the theme. As far as everyone knows, Wade Phillips is not under contract. And we don't know what's the train thought in Denver, or how their dealings with Wade, if any, are going. However, we do know what large amounts of cash do. That a false equivalency. For starters, Phillips is not under contract right now, Belichick is. Belichick has a long history of HC'ing with the Pats, Phillips has DC'd in 2 teams the last 6 years. Says you. Again, Phillips is not under contract. He can talk to any team he wants to. We don't know the situation in Denver. Maybe they are eyeing a HC who wants his own staff, DC included... we don't know. Although we know what large amounts of cash can do in such situations. The point that you are missing is that Phillips' scheme doesn't match the Saints personnel at all. Payton has gone down that street before. It will not happen again, even IF Wade was willing to go to a team with no players to fit his scheme. Is it technically possible? Yes, but it makes no sense whatsoever for any of the parties involved. Personally I would be shocked if Elway let him go.

01-09-2017, 02:41 PM	#9
Tobias-Reiper Merces Letifer Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 4,161	Re: You're Sean Payton Originally Posted by AsylumGuido The point that you are missing is that Phillips' scheme doesn't match the Saints personnel at all. Oh, so yet another point I am missing... ok. What makes you so sure Phillips' scheme doesn't match Saints personnel at all? Being how historically bad the Saints defense has been the past few years, a very valid argument can be made that the Saints either don't have the personnel to run what they want to run, or they have no idea what to do with the personnel they have. Any other point I am missing? jnormand, dizzle88 and halloween 65 like this.

01-09-2017, 05:09 PM	#10
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,622	Re: You're Sean Payton Originally Posted by Tobias-Reiper Oh, so yet another point I am missing... ok. What makes you so sure Phillips' scheme doesn't match Saints personnel at all? Being how historically bad the Saints defense has been the past few years, a very valid argument can be made that the Saints either don't have the personnel to run what they want to run, or they have no idea what to do with the personnel they have. Any other point I am missing? First of all, as halloween pointed out, our two, and perhaps as many as our FOUR best defensive players are not 3-4 type players. As he mentioned, we would have to get rid of Cam Jordan and Kenny Vacarro and not retain Fairley. He also assumes that Rankins, who looked like a stud in the 4-3, could seamlessly convert to a NT. He would be wasted at that position. Now, as for the last few years, in 2012, Coach Spagnuolo attempted to pigeon hole players that were primarily 3-4 players into his strict 4-3. It was a disaster. In comes Rob Ryan in 2013. As he had done previously at Dallas, he introduced a stripped down version of his 3-4. There was enough 3-4 personnel to make it work that first year. In 2014 he fully implemented his defense which to say it is complex is an understatement. The defense looked lost. Some of the players were still more suited to a 4-3, such as Jordan. In 2015 Payton saw that the Ryan experiment wasn't working and brought in Allen. Allen quickly started using players to their strengths. This past season you know what happened with the injuries. Allen is flexible in his scheming, not like Phillips who is strictly a 3-4 coach.
	“The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.” — Winston Churchill

LinkBacks (?) LinkBack to this Thread: https://blackandgold.com/saints/80989-youre-sean-payton.html
Posted By	For	Type	Date	Hits
The Latest New Orleans Saints News \| SportSpyder	This thread	Refback	01-05-2017 08:07 PM	7