Official 2024 Free Agency Discussion

SmashMouth · 02-29-2024, 01:06 PM

Originally Posted by K Major

Jeff Ireland ...

You're right. Saints have SERIOUS work to do.

Never seen Jeff Ireland so stressed out looking. Dude has circles over circles below his eyes.

AsylumGuido · 03-01-2024, 12:30 PM

Rugby Saint II · 03-02-2024, 03:55 PM

Klint Kubiak loves his tight ends and if Brock Bowers is there at 14 we should grab him. If not, there should be some good tackles left on the board. We need to prepare for Ram's retirement and/or Penning's limitations. Right now, I have zero confidence in our tackles.

lee909 · 03-03-2024, 05:37 PM

Originally Posted by Rugby Saint II

Klint Kubiak loves his tight ends and if Brock Bowers is there at 14 we should grab him. If not, there should be some good tackles left on the board. We need to prepare for Ram's retirement and/or Penning's limitations. Right now, I have zero confidence in our tackles.

Would be stupid to go TE imho. No point in offensive weapons if you can't keep tne QB off his backside.

The Dude · 03-04-2024, 08:13 PM

Originally Posted by Rugby Saint II

Klint Kubiak loves his tight ends and if Brock Bowers is there at 14 we should grab him. If not, there should be some good tackles left on the board. We need to prepare for Ram's retirement and/or Penning's limitations. Right now, I have zero confidence in our tackles.

I would rather get some production out of the huge collection of first round offensive lineman we already have but I guess that's asking too much. I feel like we can get equally mediocre play out of a 2nd or 3rd round tackle. Save the first rounder for another player with raw potential and huge upside with an injury history.

BakoSaint · 03-04-2024, 08:36 PM

Originally Posted by The Dude

I would rather get some production out of the huge collection of first round offensive lineman we already have but I guess that's asking too much. I feel like we can get equally mediocre play out of a 2nd or 3rd round tackle. Save the first rounder for another player with raw potential and huge upside with an injury history.

Lets talk about this 'huge collection.'

Andrus Peat was technically a 1st round pick, 9 years ago, but is now a 30 year old injury riddled journeyman level player who has switched position twice due to performance issues and commands a $4 million salary as a borderline replacement starter / quality backup. The fact that he commanded a 1st round pick in 2015 is irrelevant today. It's like trying to bring back Bortles as our backup QB to get production out of him because he was once a 1st round pick, demanding that a late career Robert Meachem should have been penciled in as an elite starter for the Saints in his final year with the team in 2014 because he has been a 1st round pick in 2008. It just does not work that way.

Trevor Penning was a late 1st round pick 2 years ago but has been historically bad, Jamarcus Russel / Ryan Leaf except at oline bad. At this point his salary is guaranteed but it might be best to focus on how he could contribute on special teams or learn long snapping to secure his roster spot since he did not see the field at the end of the year even when everyone else was injured.

Ryan Ramczyk was an excellent 1st round pick 7 years ago. But like another great Saints Right Tackle Kyle Turley, he broke down after 6 seasons, as some big men do. He has a degenerative knee condition and we cannot control what production we get out of him. He may be an 'unfortunate setback' away from retirement and unfortunate setbacks are incredibly common in these situations. The front office is optimistic about his recovery, but they financially can't afford to cut him, so they have to be, and he is nowhere near being able to practice.

Carlos Ruiz was a late 1st round pick 4 years ago. He is a mediocre right guard and every indication is thats what he is. Maybe one year he will play a little above average, another year a little below average, depending on his contract status.

So realistically, who are we going to get more out of there? We have 3 first round picks but one is ancient and near retirement and was never great. One has been a total bust. One has a degenerative knee. One is proven mediocre. We aren't going to get more out of them, except that 'less is more' with Penning so if he doesn't play that will be giving us more. But Peat was better than expected in 2023 and is likely to revert to the mean on injuries, Ram's knee is degenerative and more likely to get worse than better, and Ruiz has always been 'meh.'

So you can ignore the positon because of two recent missed in Penning and Ruiz and because you personally demand that Ram have a longer career than Kyle Turley and completely ignore Peat's age and history, and you can draft another position because Penning spooked you about oline. But ignoring the positon won't solve it, and Carr will be on his back remembering that some receiver you wanted was open if he had another minute to throw.

AsylumGuido · 03-05-2024, 07:36 AM

Originally Posted by BakoSaint

Lets talk about this 'huge collection.'

Andrus Peat was technically a 1st round pick, 9 years ago, but is now a 30 year old injury riddled journeyman level player who has switched position twice due to performance issues and commands a $4 million salary as a borderline replacement starter / quality backup. The fact that he commanded a 1st round pick in 2015 is irrelevant today. It's like trying to bring back Bortles as our backup QB to get production out of him because he was once a 1st round pick, demanding that a late career Robert Meachem should have been penciled in as an elite starter for the Saints in his final year with the team in 2014 because he has been a 1st round pick in 2008. It just does not work that way.

Trevor Penning was a late 1st round pick 2 years ago but has been historically bad, Jamarcus Russel / Ryan Leaf except at oline bad. At this point his salary is guaranteed but it might be best to focus on how he could contribute on special teams or learn long snapping to secure his roster spot since he did not see the field at the end of the year even when everyone else was injured.

Ryan Ramczyk was an excellent 1st round pick 7 years ago. But like another great Saints Right Tackle Kyle Turley, he broke down after 6 seasons, as some big men do. He has a degenerative knee condition and we cannot control what production we get out of him. He may be an 'unfortunate setback' away from retirement and unfortunate setbacks are incredibly common in these situations. The front office is optimistic about his recovery, but they financially can't afford to cut him, so they have to be, and he is nowhere near being able to practice.

Carlos Ruiz was a late 1st round pick 4 years ago. He is a mediocre right guard and every indication is thats what he is. Maybe one year he will play a little above average, another year a little below average, depending on his contract status.

So realistically, who are we going to get more out of there? We have 3 first round picks but one is ancient and near retirement and was never great. One has been a total bust. One has a degenerative knee. One is proven mediocre. We aren't going to get more out of them, except that 'less is more' with Penning so if he doesn't play that will be giving us more. But Peat was better than expected in 2023 and is likely to revert to the mean on injuries, Ram's knee is degenerative and more likely to get worse than better, and Ruiz has always been 'meh.'

So you can ignore the positon because of two recent missed in Penning and Ruiz and because you personally demand that Ram have a longer career than Kyle Turley and completely ignore Peat's age and history, and you can draft another position because Penning spooked you about oline. But ignoring the positon won't solve it, and Carr will be on his back remembering that some receiver you wanted was open if he had another minute to throw.

You are assuming that what we currently have cannot be further developed. Did you listen to Jason Kelce's retirement speech yesterday? If not, do. He spoke of reaching a point five years into his career and a season in which fans and media alike wanted to run him out of town. He's even said he would have run himself out of town as badly as he was playing.

"I had an awful start to that season (2016) where I was often overpowered, had many holding penalties that cost our team, and looked like one of the worst centers in the league. I was wanted out of town by nearly everyone. And it wasn't just the fans that wanted me gone. It was nearly everyone in this organization. That offseason, I heard trade rumors galore and speculation I'd be cut. I imagine if the Eagles had received a trade offer for a brand new set of washing machines, they may have pulled the trigger. Hell, if I was in charge, I would have pulled the trigger. There's only one person in this building who still wanted me. And it's he who I have to thank most for the career I've had, that's Jeff Stoutland (offensive line coach)."

"Stout was the one who believed in me. He was adamant my problems could be fixed with proper technique, fundamentals, and work. And work we did. That offseason and Training Camp, I focused on using my hands better, playing with leverage, proper footwork, and prepared with an edge to prove to myself that I was good enough. The following season in 2017 I enjoyed the finest season of my 13-year career not only as a player, but as a team."

So much of being successful on the offensive line has to do with technique. With the right coaching Penning and Ruiz can be studs. Maybe not as great as Kelce, but definitely better than anyone that could be plugged in as raw as ALL linemen are entering the league today.

SmashMouth · 03-03-2024, 04:22 PM

https://saintswire.usatoday.com/2024...ts-salary-cap/

AsylumGuido · 03-04-2024, 08:22 AM

Originally Posted by SmashMouth

https://saintswire.usatoday.com/2024...ts-salary-cap/

The article doesn't match the title. The article talks about how his contract isn't as bad as some other blogger rated it.

BakoSaint · 03-04-2024, 10:36 AM

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido

The article doesn't match the title. The article talks about how his contract isn't as bad as some other blogger rated it.

His contract is not the worst part. Its the team that gave him the contract, what his contract means for us, with our cap situation. If any other team had given him the contract they could pull the rip cord and escape it before paying him $40 million 2025 or $50 million in 2026. The $50 million in 2026 was even discussed as not being real, effectively a void year, looking at the modest cost to bail on the deal at that point, which would be leverage to renegotiate at a more reasonable number if it was working out. But with the way the Saints manage the salary cap starting every year $100 million over the cap and restructuring every deal, we can't afford the dead cap that comes with pulling the rip cord on a deal this big, because that modest sum to get out of the deal if needed increases with every restructure. For any other team, Carr's contract would be a roll of the dice that is done in 2 years if it fails. For the Saints, its ride or die for the long term on Carr being elite, and that is what makes it a disaster. DeShaun Watson's deal is fully guaranteed, making it a disaster. The truth is that Derek Carr's deal is really fully guaranteed too, not because the language of the contract prevents Carr from ever being cut, but because the the state of the Saints salary cap and the way they manage it prevents him from ever being cut. But at least Watson's contract expires and the Browns will not be inquiring about an extension. With Carr, an extension in 2027 is highly probable to avoid what will be a $60 million or so dead cap hit at the time if he is not extended just after restructuring his 2025 $50 million salary to kick the can on another $40 million of it.

02-29-2024, 01:06 PM	#1
SmashMouth I donated, did you? Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Mandeville, LA Posts: 38,514 Blog Entries: 29	Re: 2024 Saints Off-Season General News and Discussion Originally Posted by K Major Jeff Ireland ... You're right. Saints have SERIOUS work to do. Never seen Jeff Ireland so stressed out looking. Dude has circles over circles below his eyes. K Major likes this.

03-01-2024, 12:30 PM	#2
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,543	Re: 2024 Saints Off-Season General News and Discussion Twitter

03-02-2024, 03:55 PM	#3
Rugby Saint II Bounty Money $$$ Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: 5800 Airline Dr. Metairie, LA. Posts: 24,121	Re: 2024 Saints Off-Season General News and Discussion Klint Kubiak loves his tight ends and if Brock Bowers is there at 14 we should grab him. If not, there should be some good tackles left on the board. We need to prepare for Ram's retirement and/or Penning's limitations. Right now, I have zero confidence in our tackles.

03-03-2024, 05:37 PM	#4
lee909 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Watford England Posts: 8,855 Blog Entries: 1	Re: 2024 Saints Off-Season General News and Discussion Originally Posted by Rugby Saint II Klint Kubiak loves his tight ends and if Brock Bowers is there at 14 we should grab him. If not, there should be some good tackles left on the board. We need to prepare for Ram's retirement and/or Penning's limitations. Right now, I have zero confidence in our tackles. Would be stupid to go TE imho. No point in offensive weapons if you can't keep tne QB off his backside. SaintFanInATLHELL and BakoSaint like this.

03-04-2024, 08:13 PM	#5
The Dude 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 9,055	Re: 2024 Saints Off-Season General News and Discussion Originally Posted by Rugby Saint II Klint Kubiak loves his tight ends and if Brock Bowers is there at 14 we should grab him. If not, there should be some good tackles left on the board. We need to prepare for Ram's retirement and/or Penning's limitations. Right now, I have zero confidence in our tackles. I would rather get some production out of the huge collection of first round offensive lineman we already have but I guess that's asking too much. I feel like we can get equally mediocre play out of a 2nd or 3rd round tackle. Save the first rounder for another player with raw potential and huge upside with an injury history.
The Dude 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 9,055

03-04-2024, 08:36 PM	#6
BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 2,328	Re: 2024 Saints Off-Season General News and Discussion Originally Posted by The Dude I would rather get some production out of the huge collection of first round offensive lineman we already have but I guess that's asking too much. I feel like we can get equally mediocre play out of a 2nd or 3rd round tackle. Save the first rounder for another player with raw potential and huge upside with an injury history. Lets talk about this 'huge collection.' Andrus Peat was technically a 1st round pick, 9 years ago, but is now a 30 year old injury riddled journeyman level player who has switched position twice due to performance issues and commands a $4 million salary as a borderline replacement starter / quality backup. The fact that he commanded a 1st round pick in 2015 is irrelevant today. It's like trying to bring back Bortles as our backup QB to get production out of him because he was once a 1st round pick, demanding that a late career Robert Meachem should have been penciled in as an elite starter for the Saints in his final year with the team in 2014 because he has been a 1st round pick in 2008. It just does not work that way. Trevor Penning was a late 1st round pick 2 years ago but has been historically bad, Jamarcus Russel / Ryan Leaf except at oline bad. At this point his salary is guaranteed but it might be best to focus on how he could contribute on special teams or learn long snapping to secure his roster spot since he did not see the field at the end of the year even when everyone else was injured. Ryan Ramczyk was an excellent 1st round pick 7 years ago. But like another great Saints Right Tackle Kyle Turley, he broke down after 6 seasons, as some big men do. He has a degenerative knee condition and we cannot control what production we get out of him. He may be an 'unfortunate setback' away from retirement and unfortunate setbacks are incredibly common in these situations. The front office is optimistic about his recovery, but they financially can't afford to cut him, so they have to be, and he is nowhere near being able to practice. Carlos Ruiz was a late 1st round pick 4 years ago. He is a mediocre right guard and every indication is thats what he is. Maybe one year he will play a little above average, another year a little below average, depending on his contract status. So realistically, who are we going to get more out of there? We have 3 first round picks but one is ancient and near retirement and was never great. One has been a total bust. One has a degenerative knee. One is proven mediocre. We aren't going to get more out of them, except that 'less is more' with Penning so if he doesn't play that will be giving us more. But Peat was better than expected in 2023 and is likely to revert to the mean on injuries, Ram's knee is degenerative and more likely to get worse than better, and Ruiz has always been 'meh.' So you can ignore the positon because of two recent missed in Penning and Ruiz and because you personally demand that Ram have a longer career than Kyle Turley and completely ignore Peat's age and history, and you can draft another position because Penning spooked you about oline. But ignoring the positon won't solve it, and Carr will be on his back remembering that some receiver you wanted was open if he had another minute to throw. Rugby Saint II likes this.
BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 2,328

03-05-2024, 07:36 AM	#7
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,543	Re: 2024 Saints Off-Season General News and Discussion Originally Posted by BakoSaint Lets talk about this 'huge collection.' Andrus Peat was technically a 1st round pick, 9 years ago, but is now a 30 year old injury riddled journeyman level player who has switched position twice due to performance issues and commands a $4 million salary as a borderline replacement starter / quality backup. The fact that he commanded a 1st round pick in 2015 is irrelevant today. It's like trying to bring back Bortles as our backup QB to get production out of him because he was once a 1st round pick, demanding that a late career Robert Meachem should have been penciled in as an elite starter for the Saints in his final year with the team in 2014 because he has been a 1st round pick in 2008. It just does not work that way. Trevor Penning was a late 1st round pick 2 years ago but has been historically bad, Jamarcus Russel / Ryan Leaf except at oline bad. At this point his salary is guaranteed but it might be best to focus on how he could contribute on special teams or learn long snapping to secure his roster spot since he did not see the field at the end of the year even when everyone else was injured. Ryan Ramczyk was an excellent 1st round pick 7 years ago. But like another great Saints Right Tackle Kyle Turley, he broke down after 6 seasons, as some big men do. He has a degenerative knee condition and we cannot control what production we get out of him. He may be an 'unfortunate setback' away from retirement and unfortunate setbacks are incredibly common in these situations. The front office is optimistic about his recovery, but they financially can't afford to cut him, so they have to be, and he is nowhere near being able to practice. Carlos Ruiz was a late 1st round pick 4 years ago. He is a mediocre right guard and every indication is thats what he is. Maybe one year he will play a little above average, another year a little below average, depending on his contract status. So realistically, who are we going to get more out of there? We have 3 first round picks but one is ancient and near retirement and was never great. One has been a total bust. One has a degenerative knee. One is proven mediocre. We aren't going to get more out of them, except that 'less is more' with Penning so if he doesn't play that will be giving us more. But Peat was better than expected in 2023 and is likely to revert to the mean on injuries, Ram's knee is degenerative and more likely to get worse than better, and Ruiz has always been 'meh.' So you can ignore the positon because of two recent missed in Penning and Ruiz and because you personally demand that Ram have a longer career than Kyle Turley and completely ignore Peat's age and history, and you can draft another position because Penning spooked you about oline. But ignoring the positon won't solve it, and Carr will be on his back remembering that some receiver you wanted was open if he had another minute to throw. You are assuming that what we currently have cannot be further developed. Did you listen to Jason Kelce's retirement speech yesterday? If not, do. He spoke of reaching a point five years into his career and a season in which fans and media alike wanted to run him out of town. He's even said he would have run himself out of town as badly as he was playing. "I had an awful start to that season (2016) where I was often overpowered, had many holding penalties that cost our team, and looked like one of the worst centers in the league. I was wanted out of town by nearly everyone. And it wasn't just the fans that wanted me gone. It was nearly everyone in this organization. That offseason, I heard trade rumors galore and speculation I'd be cut. I imagine if the Eagles had received a trade offer for a brand new set of washing machines, they may have pulled the trigger. Hell, if I was in charge, I would have pulled the trigger. There's only one person in this building who still wanted me. And it's he who I have to thank most for the career I've had, that's Jeff Stoutland (offensive line coach)." "Stout was the one who believed in me. He was adamant my problems could be fixed with proper technique, fundamentals, and work. And work we did. That offseason and Training Camp, I focused on using my hands better, playing with leverage, proper footwork, and prepared with an edge to prove to myself that I was good enough. The following season in 2017 I enjoyed the finest season of my 13-year career not only as a player, but as a team." So much of being successful on the offensive line has to do with technique. With the right coaching Penning and Ruiz can be studs. Maybe not as great as Kelce, but definitely better than anyone that could be plugged in as raw as ALL linemen are entering the league today. Danno, saintsfan1976, Rugby Saint II and 1 others like this.
	“The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.” — Winston Churchill

03-03-2024, 04:22 PM	#8
SmashMouth I donated, did you? Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Mandeville, LA Posts: 38,514 Blog Entries: 29	Re: 2024 Saints Off-Season General News and Discussion https://saintswire.usatoday.com/2024...ts-salary-cap/

03-04-2024, 08:22 AM	#9
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,543	Re: 2024 Saints Off-Season General News and Discussion Originally Posted by SmashMouth https://saintswire.usatoday.com/2024...ts-salary-cap/ The article doesn't match the title. The article talks about how his contract isn't as bad as some other blogger rated it.

03-04-2024, 10:36 AM	#10
BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 2,328	Re: 2024 Saints Off-Season General News and Discussion Originally Posted by AsylumGuido The article doesn't match the title. The article talks about how his contract isn't as bad as some other blogger rated it. His contract is not the worst part. Its the team that gave him the contract, what his contract means for us, with our cap situation. If any other team had given him the contract they could pull the rip cord and escape it before paying him $40 million 2025 or $50 million in 2026. The $50 million in 2026 was even discussed as not being real, effectively a void year, looking at the modest cost to bail on the deal at that point, which would be leverage to renegotiate at a more reasonable number if it was working out. But with the way the Saints manage the salary cap starting every year $100 million over the cap and restructuring every deal, we can't afford the dead cap that comes with pulling the rip cord on a deal this big, because that modest sum to get out of the deal if needed increases with every restructure. For any other team, Carr's contract would be a roll of the dice that is done in 2 years if it fails. For the Saints, its ride or die for the long term on Carr being elite, and that is what makes it a disaster. DeShaun Watson's deal is fully guaranteed, making it a disaster. The truth is that Derek Carr's deal is really fully guaranteed too, not because the language of the contract prevents Carr from ever being cut, but because the the state of the Saints salary cap and the way they manage it prevents him from ever being cut. But at least Watson's contract expires and the Browns will not be inquiring about an extension. With Carr, an extension in 2027 is highly probable to avoid what will be a $60 million or so dead cap hit at the time if he is not extended just after restructuring his 2025 $50 million salary to kick the can on another $40 million of it. MatthewT likes this.
BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 2,328

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