Deuce is lazy?

saintfan · 02-02-2005, 05:17 PM

Moderator power trip? No, just asking you to check the attitude at the door, that\'s all. You made the comment man, not me. I think we should just move on.

RDOX · 02-02-2005, 05:26 PM

Moderator power trip? No, just asking you to check the attitude at the door, that\'s all. You made the comment man, not me. I think we should just move on.

I\'ve got a suggestion for a moderator power trip::

Lock this sucker or delete it. It is stupid and needs to die. I vote for deletion, myself. We have a lot more sensible things to discuss than this.

GumboBC · 02-02-2005, 05:28 PM

And one more thing folks..

Some of you say I \"stir the pot\".

I may be stirring the pot, but at the same time, some of you are trying to force-feed me something out of you\'re own little pot. And it don\'t taste very good either...

So, while some of you are trying to force-feed me your Brooks\' stew, all I\'m doing is stating some FACTS.

Some of you think I\'m \"stirring the pot\" when I say:

1. Peyton Manning gets his team sent home every year because he throws a TON of Ints in the playoffs.

2. Delhomme couldn\'t win more than 7 games because he didn\'t get any help from his teammates.

3. Deuce has a bad TD/fumble raito.

4. There\'s no clear cut case that says we should cut Brooks.

Exactly which of these aren\'t facts? I\'m confused.

Is it that I\'m \"stirring the pot\"....

Or, some of these are your favorite players and you don\'t like hearing the FACTS?

I never said any of your favorite players should be cut.

Just giving ya the facts...

That\'s all..........

saintswhodi · 02-02-2005, 05:35 PM

Career turnovers. Deuce verses AB.

Deuce- 2001 1 fumble 0 lost
2002 4 fumbles 3 lost
2003 6 fumbles 4 lost
2004 5 fumbles 4 lost
Total 16 fumbles 11 lost

AB- 2000 6 INTs 4 fumbles 1 lost
2001 22 INTs 13 fumbles 2 lost
2002 15 Ints 11 fumbles 5 lost
2003 8 INTs 14 fumbles 11 lost
2004 16 INTs 13 fumbles 2 lost
Total 67 INts 55 fumbles 21 lost

Explain to me why Deuce is the bigger problem PLEASE ANYONE.

saintfan · 02-02-2005, 05:39 PM

As has been stated before, Brooks touches the ball on EVERY play, so it would stand to reason that he\'d have more fumbles, right? What\'s the ratio of the number of times each player touched the ball versus the number of times each has fumbled? Wouldn\'t that be a true comparison? I think if you compared the number of touches to the number of fumbles you might see it differently.

Also, you\'re including INT\'s too, wich isn\'t what I\'d consider a fair comparison since Deuce doesn\'t throw passes, plus, some of those INT\'s aren\'t Brooks\' fault, unless we can blame him for tipped balls and guys running the wrong routes.

Then again, this thread is about Deuce, right?

saintswhodi · 02-02-2005, 05:45 PM

Even if you take that into account, he has fumbled WAY more and lost more. I don\'t care how many times he touches the ball. Seems to me that only makes the point stronger. Since he DOES touch the ball so much, WHY would I want someone so fumble prone handling it? And I am glad we agree Deuce does not touch the ball as much so the bigger problem is obviously the guy who touches the ball more right? And if he can\'t handle it, he needs to go. That is very much agreed upon. So let\'s also say we cut the INTS in HALF because we wanna blame outside factors, that is still 54 TURNOVERS to Deuce\'s 11. That is almost 5 to 1, AND THAT IS CUTTING THE INTS IN HALF considering no way half of those were tipped and whatever other excuses there were. So that didn\'t do it. Someone else explain to me how Deuce is the bigger problem please.

GumboBC · 02-02-2005, 05:53 PM

Career turnovers. Deuce verses AB.

Deuce- 2001 1 fumble 0 lost
2002 4 fumbles 3 lost
2003 6 fumbles 4 lost
2004 5 fumbles 4 lost
Total 16 fumbles 11 lost

AB- 2000 6 INTs 4 fumbles 1 lost
2001 22 INTs 13 fumbles 2 lost
2002 15 Ints 11 fumbles 5 lost
2003 8 INTs 14 fumbles 11 lost
2004 16 INTs 13 fumbles 2 lost
Total 67 INts 55 fumbles 21 lost

Explain to me why Deuce is the bigger problem PLEASE ANYONE.

First, saintwhodi. I want to aplogize for some things that I might have said in the past.

I\'ve read a lot of your posts, and, while I don\'t agree with some of them, you seem pretty knowledgeable. That is, when you get off the Aaron Brooks subject...

Are we cool?

Now!!

Couple of things here:

1. You used 5 years worth of stats for Brooks and only 3-years worth of stats for Deuce. (you used the 2000 season when Deuce hardly played at all.) That really doesn\'t seem fair to me. Not when you total all them up.

Maybe if you woud have factored in 2 more years for Deuce on an average of what he\'s done over his first 3 years as a starter..

Let\'s wipe out two years for Brooks just to be fair? Fair?

I\'ll take out 2000 and 2004. That\'s 2 of Brooks better years for turnovers...

Brooks:
2001 22 INTs 13 fumbles 2 lost
2002 15 Ints 11 fumbles 5 lost
2003 8 INTs 14 fumbles 11 lost

Total Int: 45 Total fumbles lost: 18 Grand Total: 63

Deuce-
2002 4 fumbles 3 lost
2003 6 fumbles 4 lost
2004 5 fumbles 4 lost
Total 16 fumbles 11 lost

Now we\'ve got 3 years with both of them starting. That seems much fairer to me??

Brooks - 18 fumbles lost
Deuce- 11 fumbles lost

As far as factoring in AB\'s interceptions. That\'s hard to do when Deuce never throws the ball.

IMO, Brooks interception ratio is one of the best in the league when comparing other QBs. Not the best, but not bad. I think you also have to take into consideration that a lot of those ints were in his 1st and 2nd year as a starter...

I understand you want Brooks gone. That\'s cool. But this is just my way of looking at it.

I could be wrong.

ScottyRo · 02-02-2005, 05:56 PM

I don\'t think the AB touches the ball everytime thing helps him.

Half the time (assuning an even run/pass ratio) AB only has to hand the ball off. He\'s not risking much in getting hit and doesn\'t have possession of the ball very long. However, the RB is going to take a hit and may have possesion much longer.

The other half - passes - AB isn\'t supposed to get hit either. The point of the play for him is to get rid of the ball - and not by giving it to the other team. He\'s got options that a RB wouldn\'t have (such as throwing the ball away).

For the QB to be out-fumbling our apparent bumbling, stumbling, fumbling RB is not a good thing. I\'m looking at 21 lost fumbles for AB and 11 for Deuce. INTs aren\'t included. Shouldn\'t happen.

Anybody except Gumbo wanna look up stats on other QB-RB combos in regards to fumbling? (j/k Billy)

Danno · 02-02-2005, 05:59 PM

Well I am impressed that it lasted 4 pages.

saintswhodi · 02-02-2005, 06:02 PM

Did a little research for you saintfan. It was surprising. I added all AB\'s pass attempts, plus his rushing attempt plus all Deuce\'s rushing attempts Stecker\'s, Karney\'s, Terrelle Smith\'s and the games Ricky(even the ones Blake handed to him) was here to get an aggregate number of touches for AB since he handed off to Deuce and the others. Gave me a crude number of 4197 total touches for his career with 88 TURNOVERS. Came to a turnover per every 47.69 touches. Then I took Deuce\'s rushign attempts, receptions, punt and kick returns and added them up, total 1179 touches for his career, 11 turnovers. Comes to a turnover every 107.17 touches. So AB turns the ball over at a rate MORE THAN TWICE DEUCE. Tell me again how Deuce is the bigger problem since you said that would be more accurate.

[Edited on 2/2/2005 by saintswhodi]

02-02-2005, 05:17 PM	#101
saintfan Donated Plasma Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 18,556 Blog Entries: 5	Deuce is lazy? Moderator power trip? No, just asking you to check the attitude at the door, that\'s all. You made the comment man, not me. I think we should just move on.

02-02-2005, 05:26 PM	#102
RDOX 100th Post Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 264	Deuce is lazy? Moderator power trip? No, just asking you to check the attitude at the door, that\'s all. You made the comment man, not me. I think we should just move on. I\'ve got a suggestion for a moderator power trip:: Lock this sucker or delete it. It is stupid and needs to die. I vote for deletion, myself. We have a lot more sensible things to discuss than this.
RDOX 100th Post Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 264

02-02-2005, 05:28 PM	#103
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	Deuce is lazy? And one more thing folks.. Some of you say I \"stir the pot\". I may be stirring the pot, but at the same time, some of you are trying to force-feed me something out of you\'re own little pot. And it don\'t taste very good either... So, while some of you are trying to force-feed me your Brooks\' stew, all I\'m doing is stating some FACTS. Some of you think I\'m \"stirring the pot\" when I say: 1. Peyton Manning gets his team sent home every year because he throws a TON of Ints in the playoffs. 2. Delhomme couldn\'t win more than 7 games because he didn\'t get any help from his teammates. 3. Deuce has a bad TD/fumble raito. 4. There\'s no clear cut case that says we should cut Brooks. Exactly which of these aren\'t facts? I\'m confused. Is it that I\'m \"stirring the pot\".... Or, some of these are your favorite players and you don\'t like hearing the FACTS? I never said any of your favorite players should be cut. Just giving ya the facts... That\'s all..........
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616

02-02-2005, 05:35 PM	#104
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	Deuce is lazy? Career turnovers. Deuce verses AB. Deuce- 2001 1 fumble 0 lost 2002 4 fumbles 3 lost 2003 6 fumbles 4 lost 2004 5 fumbles 4 lost Total 16 fumbles 11 lost AB- 2000 6 INTs 4 fumbles 1 lost 2001 22 INTs 13 fumbles 2 lost 2002 15 Ints 11 fumbles 5 lost 2003 8 INTs 14 fumbles 11 lost 2004 16 INTs 13 fumbles 2 lost Total 67 INts 55 fumbles 21 lost Explain to me why Deuce is the bigger problem PLEASE ANYONE.

02-02-2005, 05:39 PM	#105
saintfan Donated Plasma Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 18,556 Blog Entries: 5	Deuce is lazy? As has been stated before, Brooks touches the ball on EVERY play, so it would stand to reason that he\'d have more fumbles, right? What\'s the ratio of the number of times each player touched the ball versus the number of times each has fumbled? Wouldn\'t that be a true comparison? I think if you compared the number of touches to the number of fumbles you might see it differently. Also, you\'re including INT\'s too, wich isn\'t what I\'d consider a fair comparison since Deuce doesn\'t throw passes, plus, some of those INT\'s aren\'t Brooks\' fault, unless we can blame him for tipped balls and guys running the wrong routes. Then again, this thread is about Deuce, right?
	C'mon Man...

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02-02-2005, 05:45 PM	#106
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	Deuce is lazy? Even if you take that into account, he has fumbled WAY more and lost more. I don\'t care how many times he touches the ball. Seems to me that only makes the point stronger. Since he DOES touch the ball so much, WHY would I want someone so fumble prone handling it? And I am glad we agree Deuce does not touch the ball as much so the bigger problem is obviously the guy who touches the ball more right? And if he can\'t handle it, he needs to go. That is very much agreed upon. So let\'s also say we cut the INTS in HALF because we wanna blame outside factors, that is still 54 TURNOVERS to Deuce\'s 11. That is almost 5 to 1, AND THAT IS CUTTING THE INTS IN HALF considering no way half of those were tipped and whatever other excuses there were. So that didn\'t do it. Someone else explain to me how Deuce is the bigger problem please.

02-02-2005, 05:53 PM	#107
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	Deuce is lazy? Career turnovers. Deuce verses AB. Deuce- 2001 1 fumble 0 lost 2002 4 fumbles 3 lost 2003 6 fumbles 4 lost 2004 5 fumbles 4 lost Total 16 fumbles 11 lost AB- 2000 6 INTs 4 fumbles 1 lost 2001 22 INTs 13 fumbles 2 lost 2002 15 Ints 11 fumbles 5 lost 2003 8 INTs 14 fumbles 11 lost 2004 16 INTs 13 fumbles 2 lost Total 67 INts 55 fumbles 21 lost Explain to me why Deuce is the bigger problem PLEASE ANYONE. First, saintwhodi. I want to aplogize for some things that I might have said in the past. I\'ve read a lot of your posts, and, while I don\'t agree with some of them, you seem pretty knowledgeable. That is, when you get off the Aaron Brooks subject... Are we cool? Now!! Couple of things here: 1. You used 5 years worth of stats for Brooks and only 3-years worth of stats for Deuce. (you used the 2000 season when Deuce hardly played at all.) That really doesn\'t seem fair to me. Not when you total all them up. Maybe if you woud have factored in 2 more years for Deuce on an average of what he\'s done over his first 3 years as a starter.. Let\'s wipe out two years for Brooks just to be fair? Fair? I\'ll take out 2000 and 2004. That\'s 2 of Brooks better years for turnovers... Brooks: 2001 22 INTs 13 fumbles 2 lost 2002 15 Ints 11 fumbles 5 lost 2003 8 INTs 14 fumbles 11 lost Total Int: 45 Total fumbles lost: 18 Grand Total: 63 Deuce- 2002 4 fumbles 3 lost 2003 6 fumbles 4 lost 2004 5 fumbles 4 lost Total 16 fumbles 11 lost Now we\'ve got 3 years with both of them starting. That seems much fairer to me?? Brooks - 18 fumbles lost Deuce- 11 fumbles lost As far as factoring in AB\'s interceptions. That\'s hard to do when Deuce never throws the ball. IMO, Brooks interception ratio is one of the best in the league when comparing other QBs. Not the best, but not bad. I think you also have to take into consideration that a lot of those ints were in his 1st and 2nd year as a starter... I understand you want Brooks gone. That\'s cool. But this is just my way of looking at it. I could be wrong.
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616

02-02-2005, 05:56 PM	#108
ScottyRo 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Williamsburg, VA (ugh, the food here) Posts: 1,704	Deuce is lazy? I don\'t think the AB touches the ball everytime thing helps him. Half the time (assuning an even run/pass ratio) AB only has to hand the ball off. He\'s not risking much in getting hit and doesn\'t have possession of the ball very long. However, the RB is going to take a hit and may have possesion much longer. The other half - passes - AB isn\'t supposed to get hit either. The point of the play for him is to get rid of the ball - and not by giving it to the other team. He\'s got options that a RB wouldn\'t have (such as throwing the ball away). For the QB to be out-fumbling our apparent bumbling, stumbling, fumbling RB is not a good thing. I\'m looking at 21 lost fumbles for AB and 11 for Deuce. INTs aren\'t included. Shouldn\'t happen. Anybody except Gumbo wanna look up stats on other QB-RB combos in regards to fumbling? (j/k Billy)

02-02-2005, 05:59 PM	#109
Danno Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,723	Deuce is lazy? Well I am impressed that it lasted 4 pages.

02-02-2005, 06:02 PM	#110
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	Deuce is lazy? Did a little research for you saintfan. It was surprising. I added all AB\'s pass attempts, plus his rushing attempt plus all Deuce\'s rushing attempts Stecker\'s, Karney\'s, Terrelle Smith\'s and the games Ricky(even the ones Blake handed to him) was here to get an aggregate number of touches for AB since he handed off to Deuce and the others. Gave me a crude number of 4197 total touches for his career with 88 TURNOVERS. Came to a turnover per every 47.69 touches. Then I took Deuce\'s rushign attempts, receptions, punt and kick returns and added them up, total 1179 touches for his career, 11 turnovers. Comes to a turnover every 107.17 touches. So AB turns the ball over at a rate MORE THAN TWICE DEUCE. Tell me again how Deuce is the bigger problem since you said that would be more accurate. [Edited on 2/2/2005 by saintswhodi]