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Deuce is lazy?

this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; Thanks to Halo Gumbo, I wanna squash the beef so no prob. Also, I agree with Scotty here, a QB may touch theball more, buthe has FAR more options of gettign rid of the ball and can not take the ...

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Old 02-02-2005, 05:06 PM   #111
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Deuce is lazy?

Thanks to Halo Gumbo, I wanna squash the beef so no prob. Also, I agree with Scotty here, a QB may touch theball more, buthe has FAR more options of gettign rid of the ball and can not take the hits a RB can with the new rules, especially in the pocket. SO you have to factor INTs. I did another little project for saintfan since he asked for it. Thought I was more than fair too. Years doesn\'t matter since it was a per touch research project. Tell me what you think.
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Old 02-02-2005, 06:56 PM   #112
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Deuce is lazy?

If it\'s your argument against AB, what\'s wrong with it regarding Deuce? Relative to the \"top\" backs, he just doesn\'t score a lot...lots of yards, but not lots of TD\'s, and that\'s what matters right? Brooks, when he requested his \"raise\", had just been the QB on the first Saints team ever to win a playoff game...and he was being paid less than the 3rd string QB. I\'d say I might have asked for one too. Might you have done the same? But that\'s enough about Brooks.

Deuce has been to a pro bowl...keyword there is \"Has\". I\'m glad for that, but I\'m not ready to give him a pass for the rest of his career for it either.

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Old 02-02-2005, 06:58 PM   #113
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Deuce is lazy?

saintwhodi --

I was going on the total TD and int post you made when comparing Brooks and Deuce.

After I made my post, I read your new posts about: touches/turnovers.

While I do think that\'s more fair, I\'m not convinced we are putting up the most compelling arguement that we could.

Let me say this, first: whodi, I do agree with you that Brooks has turned the ball over too many times and it\'s really hurt us at times. Especially the year Brooks made all those \"mystery\" fumbles. He gets no free pass from me on those...


In the interest of \"fairness\", I want to compare Brooks\' TD/turnovers to some QB\'s in the NFL rather than Deuce.

Comparing Deuce to ANY QB does an injustice to both, IMO.

Anyway, I\'m going to try and be unbiased here. Really, I am..

Donte Culpepper
1st year: 33TD - 16Ints-
2nd year: 14TD - 13Ints
3rd year: 25TD - 11Ints
4th year: 39TD - 11Ints
Total TD - 111 Total Ints - 51
TD/Int ratio: 2.1

Trent Green as a Chief
1st year: 17TD - 24Ints
2nd year: 26TD - 13Ints
3rd year: 24TD - 12Ints
4th year: 27TD - 17Ints.
Total TD - 94 Total Ints - 66Ints
TD/Int ratio:1.4

Aaron Brooks
1st year: 26TD - 22Ints
2nd year: 27Td - 15Ints
3rd year: 24TD - 8Ints
4th year: 21TD - 16Ints
Total TD - 98 Total Ints - 61
TD/Int ratio:1.6

Brett Favre
1st year: 18TD - 13Ints
2nd year: 19TD - 24Ints
3rd year: 33TD - 14Ints
4th year: 38TD - 13Ints
Total TD: 108 - 64Ints
TD/Int ratio: 1.6

Donovan McNabb
1st year: 21TD - 13Ints
2nd year: 25TD - 12Ints
3rd year: 17TD - 6Ints
4th year: 16TD - 11Ints
Total TD - 79TD - 42Ints
TD/Int ratio: 1.8

Tom Brady
1st year: 18TD - 12Ints
2nd year: 28TD - 14Ints
3rd year: 23TD - 12Ints
4th year: 28TD - 14Ints
Total TD - 97 - 52Ints
TD/Int ratio: 1.8

Trent Green: TD/Int ratio:1.4
Brett Favre: TD/Int ratio: 1.6
Aaron Brooks: TD/Int ratio: 1.6
Tom Brady: TD/Int ratio: 1.8
Donavan McNabb: TD/Int ratio: 1.8
Donte\' Culpper: TD/Int ratio: 2.1

I took QBs stats from the first 4-years as a starter.


I think TD/int ratios is a good indicator of making the correct decisions in the passing game. It\'s not the \"tell-all\", but, to me, that\'s the most important stat for a QB.

I think this shows Brooks is right there with the best of them in this regard.

Now, NFL.com has the fumbles screwed up for the players. So, I can\'t get them.

Brooks is up there in fumbles when compared to other QBs. I know that. Though I\'m not sure how he would compare to these same QBs. I\'d like to know?

There\'s much more to evaluating a QB than what I\'ve done here.

Such as:

1. The fumbles need to be compared.
2. Completion percentage needs to be compared.

But, there are so many other things that must be considered taht stats will never show.

Such as:

1. How many times is the quarterback under pressure? It makes a big difference.
2. How many times does the QB avoid a sack?
3. What\'s the completion percentage on 3rd down? That\'s huge.

While I can understand your frustration with Brooks. The fumbles, the stupid comments to the media, the stupid plays, etc, ect....

But, surly you can understand that there are folks who think Brooks has done enough to be our QB. Heck, just look at the TD/int raito I listed. It\'s very good. One of the top in the NFL.

And I hope you understand that some of us think Brooks has had problems that were out of his control that has affected his play. It seems it\'s always something wrong with this team every year. The offensive line is bad one year. Brooks has a fumbling problem one year. Deuce is injured one year.

The only constant is that our defense has sucked every year.

I\'m not excusing Brooks. Not at all. And I may very well be wrong about Brooks.

Okay, I\'m tired. This post is getting too long..

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Old 02-02-2005, 07:34 PM   #114
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Deuce is lazy?

Ya know what Gumbo? I appreciate the work you did to compile those stats. The reason I posted as I did for Deuce was cause saintsfan said:

Brooks touches the ball on EVERY play, so it would stand to reason that he\'d have more fumbles, right? What\'s the ratio of the number of times each player touched the ball versus the number of times each has fumbled? Wouldn\'t that be a true comparison? I think if you compared the number of touches to the number of fumbles you might see it differently.
So as to make it as fair as possibly, I did TURNOVERS per touch, cause giving AB a pass on the INTs when, like Scotty said, he has WAY more options to get rid of the ball than a RB just isn\'t fair. But again I appreciate your work.

Now let me get into it a little. For 4 years now AB\'s receivers and RB have put McNabb\'s to shame. Same with Culpepper since Horn makes the pro bowl just like Moss and we have a better RB. Brady\'s receivers are more consistent than ours,but they didn\'t get Dillon until this year. Green\'s receivers pale in comparison to ours, but Priest is a hoss. and when he was with the Redskins, that was just crap and since you took his first 4 years, that was those right? I also don\'t think the actual fumble NUMBERS on NFL.com are wrong, just some of the totals are jacked. You basically have to add them yourself to check, but the actual numbers are correct.

But you are right, there is more in evaluating a QB. My question was though in relation to this thread, I am trying to find out why anyone is seeing Deuce as a bigger problem than AB. It just baffles me. I have my man Danno who scowled at me several times for continually discussing AB when he felt we had bigger problems, and he rails Deuce. I don\'t understand. But in the spirit of fairness, if I feel free to rail AB, anyone else is free to lay into Deuce. I just don\'t understand, but that\'s nobody\'s fault but my own. Carry on fellas. Sorry I interrupted./
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Old 02-02-2005, 07:36 PM   #115
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Deuce is lazy?

So as to ensure we\'re all working with the same data, I lifted the above from th Saints website. I assume that it is accurate.


LEON
Passing
Year G GS Att Comp Pct Yards YPA TD Int S/YL Rate
2000 8 5 194 113 58.2 1514 7.80 9 6 15/94 85.7
2001 16 16 558 312 55.9 3832 6.87 26 22 50/330 76.4
2002 16 16 528 283 53.6 3572 6.77 27 15 36/236 80.1
2003 16 16 518 306 59.1 3546 6.85 24 8 34/195 88.8
2004 16 16 542 309 57.0 3810 7.03 21 16 41/223 79.5
TTL 72 69 2340 1323 56.5 16274 6.95 107 67 176/1078 81.5

Rushing
Year G GS Att Yards TD FD Fum/L
2000 8 5 41 170 2 14 4/1
2001 16 16 80 358 1 24 13/2
2002 16 16 62 253 2 21 11/5
2003 16 16 54 175 2 20 14/11
2004 16 16 58 173 4 14 13/2
TTL 72 69 295 1129 11 93 55/19

DEUCE
Year G GS Att Yards TD FD Fum/L
2001 16 4 16 91 1 4 1/0
2002 15 15 325 1388 13 65 4/3
2003 16 16 351 1641 8 69 6/4
2004 14 14 269 1074 9 53 5/4
TTL 61 49 961 4194 31 191 16/11

Receiving
Year G GS No Yards FD
2001 16 4 15 166 8
2002 15 15 47 352 15
2003 16 16 69 516 22
2004 14 14 34 228 5
TTL 61 49 165 1262 50


I\'ve now included the \"Top 5\" in the NFL for comparison on this turnover issue (2000-2004). My analysis: Find LEON a new color jersey and we better hope that Deuce just gets a little better, because the stats don\'t paint LEON in a favorable light. This should end debate as to whether Deuce is more of a liability than LEON.

As for League comparisons, LEON\'s got to have a hall of fame year if he stays just to compensate for his last five years. He\'s not close on any measure, and toward the bottom middle on most every fundamental statistic. Including W/L. D.McNabb has had FAR fewer weapons over the last 5 years than has LEON and his T% is remarkable. That\'s not due to the defense. It\'s due to good decision-making.

All Deuce has to do is fumble 1 fewer time per year, and he\'s among the best in the league per touch. I seem to remember one fumble was on his injury play, and another was where Kearny missed his block and Deuce got hit as he took the handoff. Deuce clearly has had fewer touches, but that\'s because he\'s got one fewer full year of statistics.


Touches Turnovers %
LEON 2811 86 3.06
Tom Brady 2311 63 2.73
P Manning 3074 80 2.60
D McNabb 2898 58 2.00
D Culpep 3018 87 2.88
B Farve 2891 79 2.73

DEUCE 1126 11 0.98
E James 1709 18 1.05
L Tomlinson 1654 8 0.48
C Martin 1859 15 0.80
A Green 1749 21 1.20
S Alexander1520 13 0.86


Calvin: "I wish I was a Tiger."
Hobbes: "Common lament."
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Old 02-02-2005, 10:07 PM   #116
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Deuce is lazy?

Deuce McAllister:

73 yards behind George Rogers for first on the Saints\' career rushing yards

Has the second and third ranked highest single season totals for rushing yards in Saints History. (His highest total trailed George Rogers highest total by a mere 33 yards.)

Has the third highest single game rushing total in Saints History.

Has the most career 100 yard games in Saints History

Tied for 1st (George Rogers) with most 100 yard games in a single season in Saints History. He also occupies 2nd place on this list.

2nd all-time career rushing attempts in Saints History

2nd in single season rushing attempts in Saints History

2nd in career TDs in Saints History

Tied for 1st (George Rogers) in single season TD total in Saints History

Tied for first in single game TDs (3) with the likes of Rogers, Manning & Williams, among others. BTW, he did it twice.

Tied for 2nd - longest scoring run (76)

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Old 02-03-2005, 01:21 AM   #117
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Deuce is lazy?

Ok, someone may have said this, since I was only able to bring myself to read the last page: I like the idea of turnovers per touch, that was interesting.

However, turnovers per touch is an odd measure when comparing guys in completely different circumstances. Someone noted that the RB gets hit nearly every play, so this should make him more likely to fumble.

I want to disagree with that. First, RBs are expecting to get hit and thus protecting the ball on most plays - this seriously decreases their chance of fumbling. QBs are frequently hit in passing motions rather than tucked in, QBs are looking for WRs (rather than who is going to hit them), QBs are hit from behind far more often than RBs (which opens them to strips as well as being in a more open passing position), RBs are playing a fairly linear game and looking at the on coming tacklers and tacklers are moving in linear patterns toward them (QBs in the pocket are suceptible to defenders coming from odd angles as they disengage blocks), and so on.

It seems to me that QBs ought to fumble more often per touch than RBs. It would be interesting to see what the relative difference is on average (but I\'m sure as heck not going to do it).

This is not a point about Duece or AB, it is merely about the likelihood of a fumble on any given touch.

Again, if this point has been made, please ignore me.

"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks :cool:
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Old 02-03-2005, 08:59 AM   #118
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Deuce is lazy?

That point was touched upon Kool, but it\'s not really fair either. Once Deuce gets the ball, does he have the option to slide, throw it out of bounds, throw it downfield, kneel? No. These are all options available to a QB with the ball in his hands. If Deuce were to do any of these, he would be cut the next week. SO to ONLY compare a RBs fumbles to a QBs overall turnovers is unfair to the RB cause there is only one thing he can really do once he gets the ball, find someone and hit them. Also, if a QB gives a bad handoff to the RB or the RB is hit as he is getting the ball and it\'s fumbled, that fumble goes on the RB. Now that\'s not really fair either. Turnovers per touch was the only fair way I could see to do it, and I even added every handoff to every Saints RB since AB has been here and even included the 11 games Blake was handing off to Ricky. I think I was more than fair with AB.
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Old 02-03-2005, 09:28 AM   #119
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Deuce is lazy?

saintwhodi --

All of these things that are being compared with stats are very interesting. I\'m a stat guy..

I believe stats are VERY important. I also think that\'s why stats are kept for all players. Coaches use \'em. GMs use \'em. And its foolish not to use \'em, IMO.

But, as we all know, stats are not the \"tell-all\".

And I\'d just like to say, though your touch/turnover comparison between Deuce and Brooks was interesting, and I understand WHY you made the comparison (to prove a point to saintfan) ... I just DO NOT think its very useful to EVALUATE a quarterback by comparing him to a RB. Now matter who\'s the QB and the RB.

I think the only fair comparison is to take all the important stats for several QBs and do a side-by-side comparison.

I did a side-by-side comparison for Brooks and several of the top QBs in the NFL for TD to interception raito. Which I believe is one of the more important stats for a QB. And Brooks ranks right up there in that aspect.

However, I did NOT include fumbles. Mainly, because I can\'t find a good source to get \'em. I\'m guessing Brooks ranks bad in this regard. So, that\'s one strike against Brooks when compared to the better QBs in the NFL.

Then you have completion percentage. Brooks hasn\'t completed 60% yet. Although, he did complete 59.8% last year. But overall, thoughout his 4 year career, Brooks isn\'t up there with the better QBs in the NFL. But, he was improving up unitl this year.

So.........as far as stats go, I think the big things are his fumbling and his completion percentage. All of his other stats are great when compared to other QBs.

But, completion percentage and fumbling isn\'t all on the QB. The receivers have a lot to do with completion percentage. And I think our receivers have affected Brooks\' completion percentage some. But some of it is on Brooks because I don\'t think Brooks is the most accurate passer when it comes to throwing those intermediate passes. He misses more than he should at times.

And QBs who scramble a lot generally always have more fumbles than a pocket passer. There\'s a trade-off you get with mobile QBs, though. They generally get sacked for greater losses and have more fumbles. BUT.........they also avoid a lot of sacks than other less nimble QBs and make plays that wouldn\'t otherwise be made.

Then the offensive line can greatly effect ALL STATS for a QB.

In my mind, Brooks has done some things that has left me scratching my heads at times. But, he\'s done a lot of good and seems to be improving to me.

That was..........up until this year. But, it\'s hard for me to guage too much about Brooks this year because of the offensive line.

Same for Deuce. The line effected his play also. I can\'t put it all on Deuce or Brooks this year because of the offensive line.

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Old 02-03-2005, 09:39 AM   #120
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Deuce is lazy?

You kids play nice now. i\'m the only moderator with a power trip! :rollinglaugh: Unless you count BnB. :P
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