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-   -   Head Coach Search (https://blackandgold.com/saints/101539-head-coach-search.html)

Boston Saint 02-02-2022 07:44 PM
Re: Head Coach Search
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rell&Gold (Post 943668)
Treat this guy how you treat guys treat Guido or is Guido the only one who can be chastised for comments seen as unfavorable??? Like what are you getting at?
I’m getting at the idea that there is not much evidence that Flores was treated with racial discrimination other than that teams were forced to give him a phony interview (in his opinion) to comply with a rule put in to pander to minority coaches.

RailBoss 02-02-2022 08:39 PM
Re: Head Coach Search
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BakoSaint (Post 943641)
It would be fascinating if we hired Brian Flores as coach during the lawsuit. Most teams can't do it because they risk Goodell's ire, but we already have his ire, and we can't get any more of it. There is nothing Goodell can do beyond screwing us out of a superbowl, taking away an entire season, giving us the worst officiating call in the league every year, and not enforcing rules on the field of play if they were suggested by or could benefit our team. By hiring Flores we could actually make it harder for the NFL to screw us. All those jokes about Drew Brees wanting an explanation when the refs statistically screw us become allegations that the NFL is screwing us because of systematic racism and the Flores lawsuit, and suddenly the NFL has to be a lot more careful about it. If we hired Flores as head coach, called for a thorough and transparent investigation into his allegations, and publicly called for a new commissioner who could better represent the NFL's diverse players such as Troy Vincent or Condoleeza Rice, we would go from a cold war with Goodell to a hot war, with Goodell on the defensive in a lawsuit. I think this could actually make it harder to screw us with bad calls, and it could be quite likely for regime change to happen in the commissioners office. If it did, suddenly we are not enemy #1, and instead we are supporter #1 who helped bring the new regime in. And if it doesn't work and things blow up, we get a high draft pick and hire a new coach in a few years. Flores did a lot with a lot of roster challenges in Miami and it would be an interesting play.
Interesting take on the situation, I will say Flores is a good Coach he had Miami going in the right direction even with his hands tied.

The Dude 02-03-2022 12:11 AM
Re: Head Coach Search
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BakoSaint (Post 943641)
It would be fascinating if we hired Brian Flores as coach during the lawsuit. Most teams can't do it because they risk Goodell's ire, but we already have his ire, and we can't get any more of it. There is nothing Goodell can do beyond screwing us out of a superbowl, taking away an entire season, giving us the worst officiating call in the league every year, and not enforcing rules on the field of play if they were suggested by or could benefit our team. By hiring Flores we could actually make it harder for the NFL to screw us. All those jokes about Drew Brees wanting an explanation when the refs statistically screw us become allegations that the NFL is screwing us because of systematic racism and the Flores lawsuit, and suddenly the NFL has to be a lot more careful about it. If we hired Flores as head coach, called for a thorough and transparent investigation into his allegations, and publicly called for a new commissioner who could better represent the NFL's diverse players such as Troy Vincent or Condoleeza Rice, we would go from a cold war with Goodell to a hot war, with Goodell on the defensive in a lawsuit. I think this could actually make it harder to screw us with bad calls, and it could be quite likely for regime change to happen in the commissioners office. If it did, suddenly we are not enemy #1, and instead we are supporter #1 who helped bring the new regime in. And if it doesn't work and things blow up, we get a high draft pick and hire a new coach in a few years. Flores did a lot with a lot of roster challenges in Miami and it would be an interesting play.
I was thinking the same. If we hired Flores I would bet money that calls would start going our way just so the NFL could save face. At the very least every blatant bad call would be heavily scrutinized by fans and media alike. I would take him in a heartbeat lawsuit or not.

saintsfan1976 02-03-2022 06:52 AM
Re: Head Coach Search
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rezburna (Post 943663)
I talked about this topic in 2016 and found a study that showed being an offensive or defensive coordinator usually translates to getting head coaching gigs for White coaches but not for Black coaches. Experience and prior role didn’t matter. There was a shortage of Black coordinators and head coaches at the time. I see a good bit of Black coordinators now, but the head coaches are scarce. And why wouldn’t being the head coach be the epitome of success if you’re a coach? That’s an odd question tbh. Why wouldn’t people aspire to be the head coach?
We shouldn't assume every coach aspires to become a head coach. Since 1990, the average NFL HC tenure is just 4 seasons (link below). The pressure, the responsibility, the media.... It's not like it's a sweet gig man.

Pete Carmichael is a great example.


Link https://vikingsterritory.com/2020/ge...ans-for-zimmer

saintsfan1976 02-03-2022 07:07 AM
Re: Head Coach Search
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rezburna (Post 943661)
The litigation was created to at least get Black coaches a chance to be interviewed because there was a time when even that wasn’t happening. The hope was GM’s and owners would recognize that they are missing out on valuable resources and maybe we’d see a change. This has not been the result as we all know since Tomlin is the only Black coach in the NFL and Flores got fired after two back to back winning seasons for a franchise that hasn’t had that happen in well over a decade.
Seems the Rooney Rule isn't having the desired outcome. I can understand why some may be frustrated.

So what is the answer? Is there a number of head coaches that give people a better sense that things are "fair", "balanced", "more representative"?

Do we consider the number of black representatives across the entire NFL landscape? Coordinators, Assistants, Directors, Executives, Owners, Part owners, NFLPA Representatives, Media, Doctors, Players..... Are those worth reevaluating?

There's been so much progress that I myself am proud to see. The fact that we're now down to fighting over a position that most franchises don't get right for decades at a time just feels disingenuous.

AsylumGuido 02-03-2022 07:58 AM
Re: Head Coach Search
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by saintsfan1976 (Post 943694)
Seems the Rooney Rule isn't having the desired outcome. I can understand why some may be frustrated.

So what is the answer? Is there a number of head coaches that give people a better sense that things are "fair", "balanced", "more representative"?

Do we consider the number of black representatives across the entire NFL landscape? Coordinators, Assistants, Directors, Executives, Owners, Part owners, NFLPA Representatives, Media, Doctors, Players..... Are those worth reevaluating?

There's been so much progress that I myself am proud to see. The fact that we're now down to fighting over a position that most franchises don't get right for decades at a time just feels disingenuous.
Included in the lawsuit is a section that proposes some things that may help. Maddy Hudak's breakdown of that section is in this tweet. Note points 2. a. and b. This would fairly demonstrate the rational for hiring, not hiring, and/or firing all individuals (black, white, green, purple, male, female, other). I understand that several public entities successfully use this methodology.

AsylumGuido 02-03-2022 08:13 AM
Re: Head Coach Search
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by saintsfan1976 (Post 943692)
We shouldn't assume every coach aspires to become a head coach. Since 1990, the average NFL HC tenure is just 4 seasons (link below). The pressure, the responsibility, the media.... It's not like it's a sweet gig man.

Pete Carmichael is a great example.


Link https://vikingsterritory.com/2020/ge...ans-for-zimmer
Carmichael, however, has interviewed for multiple head coaching openings in the past. The Raiders, Packers, and the Saints among them. You are correct that not every coach that aspires to be a head coach has the makeup to be a success.

Boston Saint 02-03-2022 08:41 AM
Re: Head Coach Search
 
They are facing the reality that any rule/legislation/law made to promote equality by favoring one racial group over another is, by definition, unfair and unequal and will have consequences.

Flores “case” is proof of that. Because of the rule put in to try to artificially enforce an increase in black head coaches, Flores felt he was used as prop. Without the Rooney rule he may or may not have gotten a call from the Giants for an interview but he at least would have known if the interest was legit or a sham.

I also think the Giants should be able to hire whomever they want as HC (or anywhere else). Organizations that don’t want to take advantage of Black coaching talent would suffer the consequences. Long term successful organizations like the Steelers and Ravens whose coach/GM happen to be Black will take advantage and lead the way for others. But it is best to happen organically over time rather than by decree. Just like there are few Black Head coaches now, there were few Black QBs in the 70s and 80s when I grew up. Now, I don’t think there is any racial barrier for a Black QB and that happened naturally. The coaching situation will work itself out as well.

That’s just my opinions on things. I know it’s a touchy subject and I do not mean to offend anyone. Myself I want Winston back at QB and I’d by fine with Leftwich as a Head Coach, so I don’t think I have a bias. I would NOT want Flores though because it seems like he’s looking for one.

saintsfan1976 02-03-2022 08:53 AM
Re: Head Coach Search
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AsylumGuido (Post 943703)
Included in the lawsuit is a section that proposes some things that may help. Maddy Hudak's breakdown of that section is in this tweet. Note points 2. a. and b. This would fairly demonstrate the rational for hiring, not hiring, and/or firing all individuals (black, white, green, purple, male, female, other). I understand that several public entities successfully use this methodology.

https://twitter.com/MaddyHudak_94/st...06454676770816
These numbers aren't necessarily evidence of racism or injustice.

His examples are full of flawed logic in my opinion.

1a - so who do you take ownership from? Do you create a new franchise out of thin air to be specifically black owned?

1b - how is this not already happening

2a - good luck finding written examples that will satisfy disgruntled candidates

2b - slippery slope. too many factors can influence the decision to employ a HC and good luck comparing "well, so and so did the same thing with a different roster and different division and different owners"

3, 4, 5 - correct me if I'm wrong already exist.

saintsfan1976 02-03-2022 08:54 AM
Re: Head Coach Search
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AsylumGuido (Post 943704)
Carmichael, however, has interviewed for multiple head coaching openings in the past. The Raiders, Packers, and the Saints among them. You are correct that not every coach that aspires to be a head coach has the makeup to be a success.
Then why are we distilling it down to race


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