Who to cut (cap hits included)

TheOak · 01-28-2014, 07:13 AM

Originally Posted by Danno

Amazes me still. His contract is exactly equal to market value. I'm not happy about his tactics, but his contract is on par with his talent.

If people wanna cry about over-paying someone, they should focus on Will Smith, Marques Colston, Lance Moore, Pierre Thomas, Thomas Morstead, Broderick Bunkley, Darren Sproles, Roman Harper, and Curtis Lofton.

Drew's contract is far from the main problem.

Wanna bet we pay the stay puff marshmallow TE about 20 million too much?

Tactics are what agents do, if there were no tactics there would be no need for agents but there would be a whole lot of players getting screwed over by teams because they do not understand the fine print. Nearly all negotiated contracts are two parties trying to screw each other. When the contract is signed that means they have agreed to screw each other equally.

"If" I were the 32 owners I would change the way the league pays and go to a structured pay scale. Let them make the lions share in endorsements, which would also clean the league up a good bit. You wouldn't have someone making 40 million and running his mouth in public because the company he would be endorsing would keep a lid on his arse.

EG - A starting QB would make 10m a year salary period. He gets a bonus for perfect record, playoffs, SB etc... It does away with all the over and under paid BS. Each and every position would have a price tag, and the salary would be paid out weekly per game so if the QB went to crap and got benched he would receive BU money the next week. But thats a pipe dream.

The FO has already telegraphed its punch and Jimmy will receive no more than the Franchise Tag this season.

I just cant wait for all the threads and news articles stating "The Saints and Jimmy are close to a deal".. Anyone and i mean anyone that knows the contract process knows there is either agreement or non-agreement and there is no degree of done for contracts. You can get 19 of 20 items agreed upon but the 20th kills it and there is no contract or you can have 1 of 20 done and that 1 being the most sticky and the remaining 19 items take 5 minutes.

95% of an NFL contract is standardized and cookie cutter, they just fill in the blanks _ years, _dollar amount. Its the guaranteed money and distrobution that is the sticky wicket.

jeanpierre · 01-30-2014, 07:16 PM

Originally Posted by TheOak

"If" I were the 32 owners I would change the way the league pays and go to a structured pay scale. Let them make the lions share in endorsements, which would also clean the league up a good bit...EG - A starting QB would make 10m a year salary period. He gets a bonus for perfect record, playoffs, SB etc... It does away with all the over and under paid BS. Each and every position would have a price tag, and the salary would be paid out weekly per game so if the QB went to crap and got benched he would receive BU money the next week. But thats a pipe dream...

Wow, just had this very conversation, debate with some friends...

A couple of the problems we discovered were...

(1) Situation, Terrell and Keyshawn on the same team arguing who got the ball threw to him more and in better situations...

One Remedy was to put the Lion Share of the money in bonus pac for W-L record, Division Title, Conference Title, Lombardi...

(2) Situation, What happens to the innovators and the innovations to the game?!? Not many TE's are used like Jimmy Graham; so should his earning power be limited because he's far and away from most of the pack of TE's as a receiver? If it had been a preset salary, would Coach Payton still have gotten same effort, commitment from an equally talented Tight End not name Jimmy Graham?!?

Remedy suggested was like the Salary Cap, the individual positions, both salaries and actual position descriptions would be subject to a sliding scale...

(2a) How do you compare ILB in a 34 to an ILB in a 43; or better still, how do you get a 34 NT or DE to focus on occupying Olinemen when his counter part in a 43 is racking up the stats...

Remedy was that sacks are also a team effort and that the Team Sacks would only be used to calculate related bonuses - well that didn't fly...

(3) Would there be Anti-Trust Exposure Ramifications by "limiting earning power" at a position?

While the counter argument would be that the emphasis is on the performance (winning) and the players have a pool of 60%-65% of the revenues to divide; point of law may say you're still limited an individual's earning power in a monopolized market...

It's an ambitious idea; the devil will be in the details...

TheOak · 01-30-2014, 08:22 PM

Originally Posted by jeanpierre

Wow, just had this very conversation, debate with some friends...

A couple of the problems we discovered were...

(1) Situation, Terrell and Keyshawn on the same team arguing who got the ball threw to him more and in better situations...

One Remedy was to put the Lion Share of the money in bonus pac for W-L record, Division Title, Conference Title, Lombardi...

(2) Situation, What happens to the innovators and the innovations to the game?!? Not many TE's are used like Jimmy Graham; so should his earning power be limited because he's far and away from most of the pack of TE's as a receiver? If it had been a preset salary, would Coach Payton still have gotten same effort, commitment from an equally talented Tight End not name Jimmy Graham?!?

Remedy suggested was like the Salary Cap, the individual positions, both salaries and actual position descriptions would be subject to a sliding scale...

(2a) How do you compare ILB in a 34 to an ILB in a 43; or better still, how do you get a 34 NT or DE to focus on occupying Olinemen when his counter part in a 43 is racking up the stats...

Remedy was that sacks are also a team effort and that the Team Sacks would only be used to calculate related bonuses - well that didn't fly...

(3) Would there be Anti-Trust Exposure Ramifications by "limiting earning power" at a position?

While the counter argument would be that the emphasis is on the performance (winning) and the players have a pool of 60%-65% of the revenues to divide; point of law may say you're still limited an individual's earning power in a monopolized market...

It's an ambitious idea; the devil will be in the details...

I think you may be over thinking the anti-trust concern. Nearly all companies have pay bands for each job description they have, salary is salary.

Example: QBs pay band is (500k-1m for non starters)
(3m - 10m for starters)
Team decides where they fall in that pay band.

I wouldn't delve into a performance incentive bonus program as the whole ocean of ambiguous accountability that is the NFL as we presently know it would defiantly implode if a wrong call by a referee cost a player a bonus.

Where is the motivation? Certainly a player that will play for 10 million a year will play just as hard for 2 million a year. If not, there is the CFL or they are welcome to test the job market with their unused degree in whatever field they chose to study. Good luck pulling 6 figures with a Physical Education degree, or a Marketing degree and zero experience.

Remember.... There was a time when players played till they broke and bled for less than 100k/year.

If all fk that doesn't work there is a sizable delta between the QB pay bands, big enough to play your best or the next week when you don't start your check reflects the lower pay band.

Personally I have a freakin issue with something called "work out bonus". It's their job.

As I see it the league is responsible for healthcare and a salary within the pay-band. The onus for all other income a player wants or feels he needs falls on that player. He can go out and seek enforcements.

An 18 year old soldier has the burden of staying alive and keeping his buddies alive. These college educated 23+ year olds can't balance their own check book and manage their own urges.

halloween 65 · 01-28-2014, 07:50 AM

Originally Posted by Danno

Amazes me still. His contract is exactly equal to market value. I'm not happy about his tactics, but his contract is on par with his talent.

If people wanna cry about over-paying someone, they should focus on Will Smith, Marques Colston, Lance Moore, Pierre Thomas, Thomas Morstead, Broderick Bunkley, Darren Sproles, Roman Harper, and Curtis Lofton.

Drew's contract is far from the main problem.

Wanna bet we pay the stay puff marshmallow TE about 20 million too much?

O.K, with that said, now count the people. 1 vs, how many? I personally think they are all over paid, and with the college education they all have can make their money there also when their football days are over. It use to be the rookie contracts that killed things for unproven players now its the proven monster contracts thats killing things, it just a no win but for a few. Brees is good but 100 million good., no athelete is that good.

Euphoria · 03-07-2014, 07:19 PM

I am ok with this shake up...

Some flaws I have seen is that we have a lot of small guys with speed but we were lacking in bulk and strength.

Time to start rebuilding with younger players and revamping in areas.

alleycat_126 · 01-28-2014, 01:33 PM

Originally Posted by Danno

Amazes me still. His contract is exactly equal to market value. I'm not happy about his tactics, but his contract is on par with his talent.

If people wanna cry about over-paying someone, they should focus on Will Smith, Marques Colston, Lance Moore, Pierre Thomas, Thomas Morstead, Broderick Bunkley, Darren Sproles, Roman Harper, and Curtis Lofton.

Drew's contract is far from the main problem.

Wanna bet we pay the stay puff marshmallow TE about 20 million too much?

*In my preacher from a baptist church voice* Preach on, brother Danno!!!! Mmmmmmmhmmmmmm!!!!!! I said amen, and amen again!!!!!

jeanpierre · 01-27-2014, 11:55 PM

Explaining the NFL Rookie Pool and its Impact on the Salary Cap - Over the Cap

frankeefrank · 02-01-2014, 04:06 PM

If you are going to cap how much players earn... shouldn't we also cap what the owners and league earns?

If they hit a certain threshold, the excess goes into a public fund/scholarships/etc...

I never understood why people had so many issues with how much "players" made.
I always felt that the public was closer to the level of the "players" and therefor should sympathize with the "players" more than they do to the "owners."
Seems I was wrong.

jeanpierre · 02-02-2014, 01:07 AM

Back on subject, projected departures and/or those that may be repatriated to a reduced salary...

DE Will Smith
NT Brodrick Bunkley
SS Roman Harper
DB Malcolm Jenkins*
CB Jabari Greer
LB Jon Vilma
LB Ramon Humber
LB Will Herring
LB Parys Haralson*
LB Kenyunta Dawson

QB Luke McCown
RB Pierre Thomas*
RB Darren Sproles
WR Lance Moore*
WR Robert Meachem*
WR Joe Morgan
OT Zach Strief
OT Charles Brown
C Brian de la Puente

*Should be re-signed, renegotiate to cap friendlier contracts...

voodooido · 02-02-2014, 04:36 PM

Originally Posted by Danno

So we're about 14 over and we'll need at least 8 million for Graham, so who do you cut?

I know Loomis will likely restructure several players but this kinda gives yo a good indicator who may be asked to restructure or clean out their locker..

Approximated cap savings if cut (hopefully some restructure)...

Cap hit minus dead money = Cap savings if cut
Will Smith - 13,902,451 - 2,352,451 = 11,550,000
Darren Sproles - 4,250,000 - 750,000 = 3,500,000
Jabari Greer - 5,825,000 – 2,650,000 = 3,175,000
Pierre Thomas – 2,900,000 – 0 = 2,900,000
Lance Moore - 5,068,750 - 2,357,500 = 2,711,250
Roman Harper - 5,870,000 - 3,690,000 = 2,180,000
Mark Ingram - 2,359,875 - 973,500 = 1,386,375
Patrick Robinson - 2,804,333 - 1,446,833 = 1,357,500

I say Smith, Thomas, Moore and Robinson. Possibly Harper and Sproles. KRob and Ingram will get a ton of playing time next year. Greer and Lewis could be a top 3 CB tandem next year. Add Bunkley to the cut list. Hicks and Jenkins have pushed him out

01-28-2014, 07:13 AM	#1
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,039	Re: Who to cut (cap hits included) Originally Posted by Danno Amazes me still. His contract is exactly equal to market value. I'm not happy about his tactics, but his contract is on par with his talent. If people wanna cry about over-paying someone, they should focus on Will Smith, Marques Colston, Lance Moore, Pierre Thomas, Thomas Morstead, Broderick Bunkley, Darren Sproles, Roman Harper, and Curtis Lofton. Drew's contract is far from the main problem. Wanna bet we pay the stay puff marshmallow TE about 20 million too much? Tactics are what agents do, if there were no tactics there would be no need for agents but there would be a whole lot of players getting screwed over by teams because they do not understand the fine print. Nearly all negotiated contracts are two parties trying to screw each other. When the contract is signed that means they have agreed to screw each other equally. "If" I were the 32 owners I would change the way the league pays and go to a structured pay scale. Let them make the lions share in endorsements, which would also clean the league up a good bit. You wouldn't have someone making 40 million and running his mouth in public because the company he would be endorsing would keep a lid on his arse. EG - A starting QB would make 10m a year salary period. He gets a bonus for perfect record, playoffs, SB etc... It does away with all the over and under paid BS. Each and every position would have a price tag, and the salary would be paid out weekly per game so if the QB went to crap and got benched he would receive BU money the next week. But thats a pipe dream. The FO has already telegraphed its punch and Jimmy will receive no more than the Franchise Tag this season. I just cant wait for all the threads and news articles stating "The Saints and Jimmy are close to a deal".. Anyone and i mean anyone that knows the contract process knows there is either agreement or non-agreement and there is no degree of done for contracts. You can get 19 of 20 items agreed upon but the 20th kills it and there is no contract or you can have 1 of 20 done and that 1 being the most sticky and the remaining 19 items take 5 minutes. 95% of an NFL contract is standardized and cookie cutter, they just fill in the blanks _ years, _dollar amount. Its the guaranteed money and distrobution that is the sticky wicket. Crusader likes this.
	It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see. ~ Henry David Thoreau

01-30-2014, 07:16 PM	#2
jeanpierre Site Donor 2018 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Thibodaux Posts: 43,543 Blog Entries: 39	Re: Who to cut (cap hits included) Originally Posted by TheOak "If" I were the 32 owners I would change the way the league pays and go to a structured pay scale. Let them make the lions share in endorsements, which would also clean the league up a good bit...EG - A starting QB would make 10m a year salary period. He gets a bonus for perfect record, playoffs, SB etc... It does away with all the over and under paid BS. Each and every position would have a price tag, and the salary would be paid out weekly per game so if the QB went to crap and got benched he would receive BU money the next week. But thats a pipe dream... Wow, just had this very conversation, debate with some friends... A couple of the problems we discovered were... (1) Situation, Terrell and Keyshawn on the same team arguing who got the ball threw to him more and in better situations... One Remedy was to put the Lion Share of the money in bonus pac for W-L record, Division Title, Conference Title, Lombardi... (2) Situation, What happens to the innovators and the innovations to the game?!? Not many TE's are used like Jimmy Graham; so should his earning power be limited because he's far and away from most of the pack of TE's as a receiver? If it had been a preset salary, would Coach Payton still have gotten same effort, commitment from an equally talented Tight End not name Jimmy Graham?!? Remedy suggested was like the Salary Cap, the individual positions, both salaries and actual position descriptions would be subject to a sliding scale... (2a) How do you compare ILB in a 34 to an ILB in a 43; or better still, how do you get a 34 NT or DE to focus on occupying Olinemen when his counter part in a 43 is racking up the stats... Remedy was that sacks are also a team effort and that the Team Sacks would only be used to calculate related bonuses - well that didn't fly... (3) Would there be Anti-Trust Exposure Ramifications by "limiting earning power" at a position? While the counter argument would be that the emphasis is on the performance (winning) and the players have a pool of 60%-65% of the revenues to divide; point of law may say you're still limited an individual's earning power in a monopolized market... It's an ambitious idea; the devil will be in the details... hagan714 likes this.
	It's not that my way is the right way, I just make the right way my way...

01-30-2014, 08:22 PM	#3
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,039	Re: Who to cut (cap hits included) Originally Posted by jeanpierre Wow, just had this very conversation, debate with some friends... A couple of the problems we discovered were... (1) Situation, Terrell and Keyshawn on the same team arguing who got the ball threw to him more and in better situations... One Remedy was to put the Lion Share of the money in bonus pac for W-L record, Division Title, Conference Title, Lombardi... (2) Situation, What happens to the innovators and the innovations to the game?!? Not many TE's are used like Jimmy Graham; so should his earning power be limited because he's far and away from most of the pack of TE's as a receiver? If it had been a preset salary, would Coach Payton still have gotten same effort, commitment from an equally talented Tight End not name Jimmy Graham?!? Remedy suggested was like the Salary Cap, the individual positions, both salaries and actual position descriptions would be subject to a sliding scale... (2a) How do you compare ILB in a 34 to an ILB in a 43; or better still, how do you get a 34 NT or DE to focus on occupying Olinemen when his counter part in a 43 is racking up the stats... Remedy was that sacks are also a team effort and that the Team Sacks would only be used to calculate related bonuses - well that didn't fly... (3) Would there be Anti-Trust Exposure Ramifications by "limiting earning power" at a position? While the counter argument would be that the emphasis is on the performance (winning) and the players have a pool of 60%-65% of the revenues to divide; point of law may say you're still limited an individual's earning power in a monopolized market... It's an ambitious idea; the devil will be in the details... I think you may be over thinking the anti-trust concern. Nearly all companies have pay bands for each job description they have, salary is salary. Example: QBs pay band is (500k-1m for non starters) (3m - 10m for starters) Team decides where they fall in that pay band. I wouldn't delve into a performance incentive bonus program as the whole ocean of ambiguous accountability that is the NFL as we presently know it would defiantly implode if a wrong call by a referee cost a player a bonus. Where is the motivation? Certainly a player that will play for 10 million a year will play just as hard for 2 million a year. If not, there is the CFL or they are welcome to test the job market with their unused degree in whatever field they chose to study. Good luck pulling 6 figures with a Physical Education degree, or a Marketing degree and zero experience. Remember.... There was a time when players played till they broke and bled for less than 100k/year. If all fk that doesn't work there is a sizable delta between the QB pay bands, big enough to play your best or the next week when you don't start your check reflects the lower pay band. Personally I have a freakin issue with something called "work out bonus". It's their job. As I see it the league is responsible for healthcare and a salary within the pay-band. The onus for all other income a player wants or feels he needs falls on that player. He can go out and seek enforcements. An 18 year old soldier has the burden of staying alive and keeping his buddies alive. These college educated 23+ year olds can't balance their own check book and manage their own urges. hagan714 likes this.
	It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see. ~ Henry David Thoreau

01-28-2014, 07:50 AM	#4
halloween 65 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Grand Haven, Michigan by way of a little Mississippi River town in Louisiana Posts: 5,893	Re: Who to cut (cap hits included) Originally Posted by Danno Amazes me still. His contract is exactly equal to market value. I'm not happy about his tactics, but his contract is on par with his talent. If people wanna cry about over-paying someone, they should focus on Will Smith, Marques Colston, Lance Moore, Pierre Thomas, Thomas Morstead, Broderick Bunkley, Darren Sproles, Roman Harper, and Curtis Lofton. Drew's contract is far from the main problem. Wanna bet we pay the stay puff marshmallow TE about 20 million too much? O.K, with that said, now count the people. 1 vs, how many? I personally think they are all over paid, and with the college education they all have can make their money there also when their football days are over. It use to be the rookie contracts that killed things for unproven players now its the proven monster contracts thats killing things, it just a no win but for a few. Brees is good but 100 million good., no athelete is that good.

03-07-2014, 07:19 PM	#5
Euphoria 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Hollywood, CA Posts: 7,601 Blog Entries: 5	Re: Who to cut (cap hits included) I am ok with this shake up... Some flaws I have seen is that we have a lot of small guys with speed but we were lacking in bulk and strength. Time to start rebuilding with younger players and revamping in areas.

01-28-2014, 01:33 PM	#6
alleycat_126 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Katy, Tx a suburb of Houston Posts: 2,089	Re: Who to cut (cap hits included) Originally Posted by Danno Amazes me still. His contract is exactly equal to market value. I'm not happy about his tactics, but his contract is on par with his talent. If people wanna cry about over-paying someone, they should focus on Will Smith, Marques Colston, Lance Moore, Pierre Thomas, Thomas Morstead, Broderick Bunkley, Darren Sproles, Roman Harper, and Curtis Lofton. Drew's contract is far from the main problem. Wanna bet we pay the stay puff marshmallow TE about 20 million too much? In my preacher from a baptist church voice Preach on, brother Danno!!!! Mmmmmmmhmmmmmm!!!!!! I said amen, and amen again!!!!!

01-27-2014, 11:55 PM	#7
jeanpierre Site Donor 2018 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Thibodaux Posts: 43,543 Blog Entries: 39	Re: Who to cut (cap hits included) Explaining the NFL Rookie Pool and its Impact on the Salary Cap - Over the Cap

02-01-2014, 04:06 PM	#8
frankeefrank 500th Post Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 775	Re: Who to cut (cap hits included) If you are going to cap how much players earn... shouldn't we also cap what the owners and league earns? If they hit a certain threshold, the excess goes into a public fund/scholarships/etc... I never understood why people had so many issues with how much "players" made. I always felt that the public was closer to the level of the "players" and therefor should sympathize with the "players" more than they do to the "owners." Seems I was wrong.
frankeefrank 500th Post Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 775

02-02-2014, 01:07 AM	#9
jeanpierre Site Donor 2018 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Thibodaux Posts: 43,543 Blog Entries: 39	Re: Who to cut (cap hits included) Back on subject, projected departures and/or those that may be repatriated to a reduced salary... DE Will Smith NT Brodrick Bunkley SS Roman Harper DB Malcolm Jenkins* CB Jabari Greer LB Jon Vilma LB Ramon Humber LB Will Herring LB Parys Haralson* LB Kenyunta Dawson QB Luke McCown RB Pierre Thomas* RB Darren Sproles WR Lance Moore* WR Robert Meachem* WR Joe Morgan OT Zach Strief OT Charles Brown C Brian de la Puente *Should be re-signed, renegotiate to cap friendlier contracts...

02-02-2014, 04:36 PM	#10
voodooido 1000 Posts + Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 2,819	Re: Who to cut (cap hits included) Originally Posted by Danno So we're about 14 over and we'll need at least 8 million for Graham, so who do you cut? I know Loomis will likely restructure several players but this kinda gives yo a good indicator who may be asked to restructure or clean out their locker.. Approximated cap savings if cut (hopefully some restructure)... Cap hit minus dead money = Cap savings if cut Will Smith - 13,902,451 - 2,352,451 = 11,550,000 Darren Sproles - 4,250,000 - 750,000 = 3,500,000 Jabari Greer - 5,825,000 – 2,650,000 = 3,175,000 Pierre Thomas – 2,900,000 – 0 = 2,900,000 Lance Moore - 5,068,750 - 2,357,500 = 2,711,250 Roman Harper - 5,870,000 - 3,690,000 = 2,180,000 Mark Ingram - 2,359,875 - 973,500 = 1,386,375 Patrick Robinson - 2,804,333 - 1,446,833 = 1,357,500 I say Smith, Thomas, Moore and Robinson. Possibly Harper and Sproles. KRob and Ingram will get a ton of playing time next year. Greer and Lewis could be a top 3 CB tandem next year. Add Bunkley to the cut list. Hicks and Jenkins have pushed him out
voodooido 1000 Posts + Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 2,819

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