2022 NFL Free Agency: New Orleans Saints

AsylumGuido · 04-13-2021, 03:48 PM

Originally Posted by jeanpierre

It's only emotional for you...

Not so. I am realistic. I recognize the FACT that we have enjoyed the greatest era of Saints football because of what Payton and Loomis have accomplished. Your clear distaste for them both seems almost personal in nature (ie. emotional).

jeanpierre · 04-13-2021, 04:33 PM

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido

Not so. I am realistic. I recognize the FACT that we have enjoyed the greatest era of Saints football because of what Payton and Loomis have accomplished. Your clear distaste for them both seems almost personal in nature (ie. emotional).

You have a distaste for any criticism of Payton, Loomis; you spin it personal as it's only personal for you...

AsylumGuido · 04-13-2021, 04:40 PM

Originally Posted by jeanpierre

You have a distaste for any criticism of Payton, Loomis; you spin it personal as it's only personal for you...

Not true. If the criticism is warranted I have no problem. We simply have a differing viewpoint of when and what is warranted. In certain areas their philosophy differs from yours. In certain areas your philosophies differ from mine. That doesn't make any of us wrong. It means we favor different approaches.

jeanpierre · 04-13-2021, 05:38 PM

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido

Not true. If the criticism is warranted I have no problem. We simply have a differing viewpoint of when and what is warranted. In certain areas their philosophy differs from yours. In certain areas your philosophies differ from mine. That doesn't make any of us wrong. It means we favor different approaches.

Name instances you've criticized Payton, Loomis - we'll wait...

AsylumGuido · 04-13-2021, 05:56 PM

Originally Posted by jeanpierre

Name instances you've criticized Payton, Loomis - we'll wait...

I don't rush to Black & Gold to do so. It's not my MO to critic every play or decision. Have I ever disagreed with a decision here or there? Hell, yeah. But I don't make it my life's purpose to broadcast those few times.

jeanpierre · 04-14-2021, 08:16 AM

Originally Posted by jeanpierre

You have a distaste for any criticism of Payton, Loomis; you spin it personal as it's only personal for you...

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido

Not true. If the criticism is warranted I have no problem. We simply have a differing viewpoint of when and what is warranted. In certain areas their philosophy differs from yours. In certain areas your philosophies differ from mine. That doesn't make any of us wrong. It means we favor different approaches.

You're unable to name instances where criticism of the Payton-Loomis Management team was warranted? They've done it all perfectly all this time?

AsylumGuido · 04-14-2021, 08:25 AM

Originally Posted by jeanpierre

You're unable to name instances where criticism of the Payton-Loomis Management team was warranted? They've done it all perfectly all this time?

Nothing anymore than any other GM or coach. Maybe a timeout being called or not here or there. I'm certainly not going to criticize them for draft picks given the extremely inexact science of its nature. I'm not going to criticize them for contract structures as a whole, nor moving up or down in a draft because I believe they know what they are doing FAR more than any of us.

There's not a single coach or GM in the league that is perfect all the time. I expect imperfection so I usually see no reason to dwell on individual instances. I'd rather sit back and enjoy since none of us have any control whatsoever.

jeanpierre · 04-14-2021, 07:01 PM

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido

Nothing anymore than any other GM or coach. Maybe a timeout being called or not here or there. I'm certainly not going to criticize them for draft picks given the extremely inexact science of its nature. I'm not going to criticize them for contract structures as a whole, nor moving up or down in a draft because I believe they know what they are doing FAR more than any of us.

There's not a single coach or GM in the league that is perfect all the time. I expect imperfection so I usually see no reason to dwell on individual instances. I'd rather sit back and enjoy since none of us have any control whatsoever.

That doesn't sync with your previous arguments - If it's that inexact, logically one could argue they're overcompensated, any slapdick could do that job...

AsylumGuido · 04-15-2021, 08:51 AM

Originally Posted by jeanpierre

That doesn't sync with your previous arguments - If it's that inexact, logically one could argue they're overcompensated, any slapdick could do that job...

Not at all. They are many times more qualified than any of us. Yet, even with those extra qualifications and additional information including access to medicals and face-to-face interviews nobody knows for certain how a draftee is going to work out. Using all of the information available to them they are all making their best educated "guess" of the eventual success of the selected prospect. It is absolutely an inexact science.

An extensive study done in 2015 on all drafts picks (non-kickers) between 2005 and 2014 showed that only 25.5% of all drafted players became starters for at least half of their careers. It also broke it down between rounds taken and position. The success rate (starting) of DL, RB, and WR picked in the first round is only 58%. QB's are only slightly better at 63%.

Here's a nice summary:

Historic Success Chart

The numbers show us the following outline for finding consistent starters:

1st Round - OL (83%) LB (70%) TE (67%) DB (64%) QB (63%) WR (58%) RB (58%) DL (58%)

2nd Round - OL (70%) LB (55%) TE (50%) WR (49%) DB (46%) QB (27%) DL (26%) RB (25%)

3rd Round - OL (40%) TE (39%) LB (34%) DL (27%) WR (25%) DB (24%) QB (17%) RB (16%)

4th Round - DL (37%) TE (33%) OL (29%) LB (16%) WR(12%) DB (11%) RB (11%) QB (8%)

5th Round - TE (32%) DB (17%) WR (16%) OL (16%) DL (13%) RB (9%) LB (4%) QB (0%)

6th Round - TE (26%) OL (16%) DL (13%) WR (9%) DB (8%) RB (6%) LB (5%) QB (0%)

7th Round - DB (11%) OL (9%) QB (6%) WR (5%) DL (3%) LB (2%) RB (0%) TE (0%)

Of note are the defensive line draftees. Outside of the fourth round their success rates are dramatically low.

gosaints1 · 04-15-2021, 09:53 AM

Originally Posted by jeanpierre

That doesn't sync with your previous arguments - If it's that inexact, logically one could argue they're overcompensated, any slapdick could do that job...

It’s an argument I’ve made many times jp. All teams have the ball bounce for them and against them throughout a season. Same for draft and free agent acquisitions. That doesn’t mean “inexact” should be used as an excuse for failure, or as a predicate to a mindset of accepting everything..., bc it’s... “inexact”. Science and Medicine are “inexact” also, but the objective is to constantly improve accuracy and tolerances. Consummate professionals are always improving their craft, never accepting the status quo, never accepting “inexact” as an excuse for not meeting their goals.

04-13-2021, 03:48 PM	#1
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,720	Re: 2021 NFL Free Agency: New Orleans Saints Originally Posted by jeanpierre *It's only emotional for you...* Not so. I am realistic. I recognize the FACT that we have enjoyed the greatest era of Saints football because of what Payton and Loomis have accomplished. Your clear distaste for them both seems almost personal in nature (ie. emotional).

04-13-2021, 04:33 PM	#2
jeanpierre Site Donor 2018 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Thibodaux Posts: 43,543 Blog Entries: 39	Re: 2021 NFL Free Agency: New Orleans Saints Originally Posted by AsylumGuido Not so. I am realistic. I recognize the FACT that we have enjoyed the greatest era of Saints football because of what Payton and Loomis have accomplished. Your clear distaste for them both seems almost personal in nature (ie. emotional). You have a distaste for any criticism of Payton, Loomis; you spin it personal as it's only personal for you...

04-13-2021, 04:40 PM	#3
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,720	Re: 2021 NFL Free Agency: New Orleans Saints Originally Posted by jeanpierre You have a distaste for any criticism of Payton, Loomis; you spin it personal as it's only personal for you... Not true. If the criticism is warranted I have no problem. We simply have a differing viewpoint of when and what is warranted. In certain areas their philosophy differs from yours. In certain areas your philosophies differ from mine. That doesn't make any of us wrong. It means we favor different approaches.

04-13-2021, 05:38 PM	#4
jeanpierre Site Donor 2018 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Thibodaux Posts: 43,543 Blog Entries: 39	Re: 2021 NFL Free Agency: New Orleans Saints Originally Posted by AsylumGuido Not true. If the criticism is warranted I have no problem. We simply have a differing viewpoint of when and what is warranted. In certain areas their philosophy differs from yours. In certain areas your philosophies differ from mine. That doesn't make any of us wrong. It means we favor different approaches. Name instances you've criticized Payton, Loomis - we'll wait...

04-13-2021, 05:56 PM	#5
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,720	Re: 2021 NFL Free Agency: New Orleans Saints Originally Posted by jeanpierre Name instances you've criticized Payton, Loomis - we'll wait... I don't rush to Black & Gold to do so. It's not my MO to critic every play or decision. Have I ever disagreed with a decision here or there? Hell, yeah. But I don't make it my life's purpose to broadcast those few times.

04-14-2021, 08:16 AM	#6
jeanpierre Site Donor 2018 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Thibodaux Posts: 43,543 Blog Entries: 39	Re: 2021 NFL Free Agency: New Orleans Saints Originally Posted by jeanpierre You have a distaste for any criticism of Payton, Loomis; you spin it personal as it's only personal for you... Originally Posted by AsylumGuido Not true. If the criticism is warranted I have no problem. We simply have a differing viewpoint of when and what is warranted. In certain areas their philosophy differs from yours. In certain areas your philosophies differ from mine. That doesn't make any of us wrong. It means we favor different approaches. You're unable to name instances where criticism of the Payton-Loomis Management team was warranted? They've done it all perfectly all this time?

04-14-2021, 08:25 AM	#7
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,720	Re: 2021 NFL Free Agency: New Orleans Saints Originally Posted by jeanpierre You're unable to name instances where criticism of the Payton-Loomis Management team was warranted? They've done it all perfectly all this time? Nothing anymore than any other GM or coach. Maybe a timeout being called or not here or there. I'm certainly not going to criticize them for draft picks given the extremely inexact science of its nature. I'm not going to criticize them for contract structures as a whole, nor moving up or down in a draft because I believe they know what they are doing FAR more than any of us. There's not a single coach or GM in the league that is perfect all the time. I expect imperfection so I usually see no reason to dwell on individual instances. I'd rather sit back and enjoy since none of us have any control whatsoever.
	“The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.” — Winston Churchill

04-14-2021, 07:01 PM	#8
jeanpierre Site Donor 2018 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Thibodaux Posts: 43,543 Blog Entries: 39	Re: 2021 NFL Free Agency: New Orleans Saints Originally Posted by AsylumGuido Nothing anymore than any other GM or coach. Maybe a timeout being called or not here or there. I'm certainly not going to criticize them for draft picks given the extremely inexact science of its nature. I'm not going to criticize them for contract structures as a whole, nor moving up or down in a draft because I believe they know what they are doing FAR more than any of us. There's not a single coach or GM in the league that is perfect all the time. I expect imperfection so I usually see no reason to dwell on individual instances. I'd rather sit back and enjoy since none of us have any control whatsoever. *That doesn't sync with your previous arguments - If it's that inexact, logically one could argue they're overcompensated, any slapdick could do that job...*

04-15-2021, 08:51 AM	#9
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,720	Re: 2021 NFL Free Agency: New Orleans Saints Originally Posted by jeanpierre *That doesn't sync with your previous arguments - If it's that inexact, logically one could argue they're overcompensated, any slapdick could do that job...* Not at all. They are many times more qualified than any of us. Yet, even with those extra qualifications and additional information including access to medicals and face-to-face interviews nobody knows for certain how a draftee is going to work out. Using all of the information available to them they are all making their best educated "guess" of the eventual success of the selected prospect. It is absolutely an inexact science. An extensive study done in 2015 on all drafts picks (non-kickers) between 2005 and 2014 showed that only 25.5% of all drafted players became starters for at least half of their careers. It also broke it down between rounds taken and position. The success rate (starting) of DL, RB, and WR picked in the first round is only 58%. QB's are only slightly better at 63%. Here's a nice summary: Historic Success Chart The numbers show us the following outline for finding consistent starters: 1st Round - OL (83%) LB (70%) TE (67%) DB (64%) QB (63%) WR (58%) RB (58%) DL (58%) 2nd Round - OL (70%) LB (55%) TE (50%) WR (49%) DB (46%) QB (27%) DL (26%) RB (25%) 3rd Round - OL (40%) TE (39%) LB (34%) DL (27%) WR (25%) DB (24%) QB (17%) RB (16%) 4th Round - DL (37%) TE (33%) OL (29%) LB (16%) WR(12%) DB (11%) RB (11%) QB (8%) 5th Round - TE (32%) DB (17%) WR (16%) OL (16%) DL (13%) RB (9%) LB (4%) QB (0%) 6th Round - TE (26%) OL (16%) DL (13%) WR (9%) DB (8%) RB (6%) LB (5%) QB (0%) 7th Round - DB (11%) OL (9%) QB (6%) WR (5%) DL (3%) LB (2%) RB (0%) TE (0%) Of note are the defensive line draftees. Outside of the fourth round their success rates are dramatically low.
	“The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.” — Winston Churchill

04-15-2021, 09:53 AM	#10
gosaints1 500th Post Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 576	Re: 2021 NFL Free Agency: New Orleans Saints Originally Posted by jeanpierre *That doesn't sync with your previous arguments - If it's that inexact, logically one could argue they're overcompensated, any slapdick could do that job...* It’s an argument I’ve made many times jp. All teams have the ball bounce for them and against them throughout a season. Same for draft and free agent acquisitions. That doesn’t mean “inexact” should be used as an excuse for failure, or as a predicate to a mindset of accepting everything..., bc it’s... “inexact”. Science and Medicine are “inexact” also, but the objective is to constantly improve accuracy and tolerances. Consummate professionals are always improving their craft, never accepting the status quo, never accepting “inexact” as an excuse for not meeting their goals.
gosaints1 500th Post Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 576