Jeremy Shockey

ssmitty · 05-06-2008, 06:18 AM

SAINTS STILL WANT SHOCKEY
Posted by Mike Florio on May 5, 2008, 4:28 p.m.
Though the New Orleans Saints weren’t able to swing a trade prior to or during the 2008 draft for Giants tight end Jeremy Shockey, the Saints reportedly remain interested.

Writes Jimmy Smith of the New Orleans Times-Picayune, “Coach Sean Payton believes Shockey is a perfect fit for the Saints’ offense, and he still desperately wants the player to be wearing a black-and-gold uniform this season.”

But while a trade could still happen, the price tag would surely be higher in 2009 picks than it would have been with 2008 selections. Absent a significant offer of picks from next year’s draft, the Giants could just keep Shockey at a relatively reasonable $1.9 million base salary for the coming season, and then trade him in March or April.

The other problem is that trading Shockey could expose the Giants to a depth issue, if Kevin Boss were to break a leg or tear a tendon or rupture a spleen or puncture his scrotum. And that’s why the Saints might ultimately have to ship a tight end from their own roster to New York in order to seal the deal, especially since the Giants didn’t draft any tight

SaintFanInATLHELL · 05-06-2008, 06:54 AM

Originally Posted by saintsfan1976

Just a few things here...

1. Would you really "ignore" Shockey on D? I welcome him then.

Everyone keeps talking about the guy like he's the next coming of Ozzie Newsome or Shannon Sharpe.

His best year was his rookie year. And that was a long time ago.

2. It is about "fit". And didn't you read the title of this post??? You think our head coach knows a little more (than us) about just how well Shockey will fit in New Orleans??

Maybe. But our head coach is still relatively new to the job. Also he really hasn't had to deal with any true player adversity.

I might have a different opinion if he had gone through some Chad Johnson/T.O. type drama before.

3. You're making huge assumptions about Shockey's attitude/makeup and how he will act when reporters "flock to Bush's locker"... Were you actually IN the locker room last season? Or do you just believe everything you read?

You know that you are talking about a guy that went on record after a game and said that his coach can't coach? I believe I threw in that link in a previous post.

Could you imagine the Shockey lockerroom press conference after losing the Tampa game on a truely stupid play last year?

And you want that possibility in our locker room?

4. I haven't heard Shockey throw anyone under the bus, all i've heard is that he wants to play for another team that he can be a bigger part of.

The very fact that he wants off the SuperBowl champions because he wants to be a bigger part of another team speaks volumes. More than I can ever say.

SFIAH

SaintFanInATLHELL · 05-06-2008, 06:58 AM

Originally Posted by RickyInKenner

its impossible for you to win this argument ( that Miller/Johnson were productive because they were ignored).

Why? They produced better than Shockey last year. Shockey is clearly better. So they must have been ignored.

I say let's keep the undercover duo and let them be ignored for another season. Maybe they can get 100 catches.

SFIAH

SaintFanInATLHELL · 05-06-2008, 07:32 AM

Originally Posted by Memnoch_TP

How can you even say that, like his team winning the SB has ANYTHING to do with the Saints need him to win the SB.

He can say this because the way his team won the SB is the way that the SB is won virtually every year. Quick: name the last TE that was the SB MVP. I'll wait.

You see, we could have been the #1 Offense last year, but just because we are the BEST does not mean that we can't get BETTER. Ford used to have that attitude, now they are trying to build cars the way Toyota does, so they can catch up in sales. When you hit #1 and stop trying to get even better, you get passed up.

I actually agree with that sentiment. But the numbers are simple:

#4 offense
#26 defense

So where do you need to get better?

Now the Saints gets props for doing exactly that. They spent the offseason improving the defense. Even the choice of the kicker in the 6th round was actually a defensive move (long kickoffs).

But the #1 offense made it to the SB last year. And they walked off the field without the trophy.

The numbers don't lie. SB offenses are all over the place. But SB defenses are either consistently great throughout the season, or get hot in the playoffs. But whichever team is playing the best defense in January wins the SB virtually every time.

I (obviously) can't say this enough, Shockey makes us BETTER. Not because Shockey is the greatest TE ever, but because he changes how defenses play against us, and he changes how opposing coaches plan for us. Shockey helps us the MOST by allowing us to choose the ground in the battle. He forces the opposing coaches make the plan that they HAVE to, not the plan that they WANT to.

Not too many people seem to realize the significance of this. Shockey starts helping us win before the game is even played.

I never really challenged the talent part of the equation. My only question is that why doesn't Shockey's production match those matchup problems? Guys like Winslow, Gates, and Gonzales get 90+ catches in a good year. Shockey has never been close to that.

As far as being a "Team Cancer", everyone gripes about their jobs. Seriously, as if you have never griped about your idiot employers. I don't CARE how much he makes, if I was surrounded by idiots I would say it out loud. He is not a thug or a criminal, he has no known substance abuse problems, he will only be a problem to a dysfunctional team.

Now here's where we part ways. Loudmouth malcontents MAKES teams dysfunctional. They create drama. They cause teammates to take sides, to have to defend positions, to lose focus. They take away attention from what's important, the team winning football games, and places it upon themselves.

The Saints don't have any of those types of guys right now. Bringing in Shockey can make that old adage come true:

One bad apple spoils the bunch.

Shockey makes us better. Better is good. There is no getting around this point. You don't have to like it, but you need to accept it.

There are three aspects to this better thing and you've only really addressed one:

1) Talent. A positive there.
2) Fit. Big negative there.
3) Cost. It's going to take some cheese to get the guy in here. We're going to have to give up a significant draft pick or a productive player (or both) to get him.

Two out of three of these need to be a positive to make it work and right now I see it as two thumbs down.

Now the really funny thing is that if I bring another talented malcontent into the discussion I'd get a completely different reaction.

Pacman Jones.

Now I wouldn't bring him in either for exactly the same reasons but in fact Dallas got a steal on the ledger sheet:

1) talent. I think that's been shown.
2) Fit. Triple negative here.
3) Cost. Nothing. A lowly conditional future draft pick with no bonus money in the contract.

If dude doesn't work out, he gets cut and it costs Dallas nothing.

The Saints will not be able to say the same with Shockey. He's a costly, risky gamble for production that has not yet to be shown to be much better than the production we've seen from the tight ends on staff.

One last point, from a production standpoint I really think that Shockey has a bigger stature in fans minds than the numbers suggest. Over his career he's been averaging about 60 catches, 600 yards, and 4 TD a year. Compare to Gonzales who averages 75 catches, 900 yards, and 6 TD a year or Gates who averages 68 catches, 875 yards and nearly 9 TDs a year.

So what I see is a moderately talented TE with a questionable locker room presence and a really high price tag.

And you wonder why I argue that this supposed trade is a really bad idea.

SFIAH

saintsfan1976 · 05-06-2008, 07:46 AM

Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL

Everyone keeps talking about the guy like he's the next coming of Ozzie Newsome or Shannon Sharpe.

His best year was his rookie year. And that was a long time ago.

Maybe. But our head coach is still relatively new to the job. Also he really hasn't had to deal with any true player adversity.

I might have a different opinion if he had gone through some Chad Johnson/T.O. type drama before.

You know that you are talking about a guy that went on record after a game and said that his coach can't coach? I believe I threw in that link in a previous post.

Could you imagine the Shockey lockerroom press conference after losing the Tampa game on a truely stupid play last year?

And you want that possibility in our locker room?

The very fact that he wants off the SuperBowl champions because he wants to be a bigger part of another team speaks volumes. More than I can ever say.

SFIAH

Bottom Line: Shockey would make us better on the field.

All the other crap has been blown out of proportion.

SaintFanInATLHELL · 05-06-2008, 07:54 AM

Originally Posted by saintsfan1976

Bottom Line: Shockey would make us better on the field.

All the other crap has been blown out of proportion.

Bottom line: Shockey making us better on the field hasn't been proven. Our TE pair from last year outplayed him.

Bottom line: He's a diva malcontent that thinks of himself first.

This really summarizes the two sides of this thread. It can be closed now.

SFIAH

jeanpierre · 05-06-2008, 08:47 AM

Shockey want to win (.)

All great players want the ball at crunch time (.)

Eli (see avatar to who I think is the first family of football) is no Drew Brees in regards to interpersonal relationships (.)

Shockey knows what Payton knows, he can cause all kinds of havoc for a defensive coordinator (.)

Putting a scheme with Shockey limits the chances of a Reggie Bush reverse being called (humour)

SapperSaint · 05-06-2008, 09:05 AM

I may be crazy....but I like hearing that a "HighProfile" player WANTS to play for the Saints.

SaintFanInATLHELL · 05-06-2008, 09:32 AM

Originally Posted by jeanpierre

Shockey want to win (.)

The Saints have a ton of offensive players. Are you saying that they don't want to win?

All great players want the ball at crunch time (.)

No doubt. The question is how do they handle it when they don't get it a crunch time? I know how Brees, Reggie, Deuce, Colston, and yes Johnson and Miller will handle that. I've also seen how Shockey handles it too. Not the same reaction.

Eli (see avatar to who I think is the first family of football) is no Drew Brees in regards to interpersonal relationships (.)

Eli is a SB champion and MVP. Oh as a reminder, he accomplished that without Shockey.

Shockey knows what Payton knows, he can cause all kinds of havoc for a defensive coordinator (.)

Rehash, rehash. You're not really telling me anything that I don't already know. You still haven't addressed what I've pointed out in numerous previous posts to this thread: If Shockey creates such havoc, then why don't his numbers reflect it?

Putting a scheme with Shockey limits the chances of a Reggie Bush reverse being called (humour)

Apples and gorillas. That call was Payton wanting to make a splash. It was a mistake. He would have called that play if Shockey were on the field or not.

But it's a lesson learned. Next time he'll run the ball into the line just like he's supposed to.

Why don't ya'll just admit that you want Shockey because you like the idea, not because of any real substative evidence. All the evidence I need I have from the NYG:

1. Dude threw his coach under the bus.
2. The team won the SB without him.
3. He wants to get out because he wasn't the star in the playoff run.
4. The NYG want a king's (or fool's) ransom for him.

That's all I need to see. Pass.

SFIAH

mikesaintfan · 05-06-2008, 09:58 AM

question....Do you think that NFL defensive cooridinators would try to account for shockey in their weekly gameplan vs the giants? on our offense shockey would be the 4th option at best? what option was he for the Giants offense? would he not recieve less priority from oposing defense on the saints then he did on the giants? would he be able to expoit this and become a huge threat?

05-06-2008, 06:18 AM	#51
ssmitty 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 1,879	Re: payton wants shockey................... SAINTS STILL WANT SHOCKEY Posted by Mike Florio on May 5, 2008, 4:28 p.m. Though the New Orleans Saints weren’t able to swing a trade prior to or during the 2008 draft for Giants tight end Jeremy Shockey, the Saints reportedly remain interested. Writes Jimmy Smith of the New Orleans Times-Picayune, “Coach Sean Payton believes Shockey is a perfect fit for the Saints’ offense, and he still desperately wants the player to be wearing a black-and-gold uniform this season.” But while a trade could still happen, the price tag would surely be higher in 2009 picks than it would have been with 2008 selections. Absent a significant offer of picks from next year’s draft, the Giants could just keep Shockey at a relatively reasonable $1.9 million base salary for the coming season, and then trade him in March or April. The other problem is that trading Shockey could expose the Giants to a depth issue, if Kevin Boss were to break a leg or tear a tendon or rupture a spleen or puncture his scrotum. And that’s why the Saints might ultimately have to ship a tight end from their own roster to New York in order to seal the deal, especially since the Giants didn’t draft any tight
ssmitty 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 1,879

05-06-2008, 06:54 AM	#52
SaintFanInATLHELL The Professor Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Lithonia, GA Posts: 2,776	Re: payton wants shockey................... Originally Posted by saintsfan1976 Just a few things here... 1. Would you really "ignore" Shockey on D? I welcome him then. Everyone keeps talking about the guy like he's the next coming of Ozzie Newsome or Shannon Sharpe. His best year was his rookie year. And that was a long time ago. 2. It is about "fit". And didn't you read the title of this post??? You think our head coach knows a little more (than us) about just how well Shockey will fit in New Orleans?? Maybe. But our head coach is still relatively new to the job. Also he really hasn't had to deal with any true player adversity. I might have a different opinion if he had gone through some Chad Johnson/T.O. type drama before. 3. You're making huge assumptions about Shockey's attitude/makeup and how he will act when reporters "flock to Bush's locker"... Were you actually IN the locker room last season? Or do you just believe everything you read? You know that you are talking about a guy that went on record after a game and said that his coach can't coach? I believe I threw in that link in a previous post. Could you imagine the Shockey lockerroom press conference after losing the Tampa game on a truely stupid play last year? And you want that possibility in our locker room? 4. I haven't heard Shockey throw anyone under the bus, all i've heard is that he wants to play for another team that he can be a bigger part of. The very fact that he wants off the SuperBowl champions because he wants to be a bigger part of another team speaks volumes. More than I can ever say. SFIAH
	Super Bowl Championships: New Orleans Saints:1, Carolina:0, Atlanta Chokers: STILL ZERO Only Atlanta choked in an unchokable situation... Life is definitely good.

05-06-2008, 06:58 AM	#53
SaintFanInATLHELL The Professor Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Lithonia, GA Posts: 2,776	Re: payton wants shockey................... Originally Posted by RickyInKenner its impossible for you to win this argument ( that Miller/Johnson were productive because they were ignored). Why? They produced better than Shockey last year. Shockey is clearly better. So they must have been ignored. I say let's keep the undercover duo and let them be ignored for another season. Maybe they can get 100 catches. SFIAH

05-06-2008, 07:32 AM	#54
SaintFanInATLHELL The Professor Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Lithonia, GA Posts: 2,776	Re: payton wants shockey................... Originally Posted by Memnoch_TP How can you even say that, like his team winning the SB has ANYTHING to do with the Saints need him to win the SB. He can say this because the way his team won the SB is the way that the SB is won virtually every year. Quick: name the last TE that was the SB MVP. I'll wait. You see, we could have been the #1 Offense last year, but just because we are the BEST does not mean that we can't get BETTER. Ford used to have that attitude, now they are trying to build cars the way Toyota does, so they can catch up in sales. When you hit #1 and stop trying to get even better, you get passed up. I actually agree with that sentiment. But the numbers are simple: #4 offense #26 defense So where do you need to get better? Now the Saints gets props for doing exactly that. They spent the offseason improving the defense. Even the choice of the kicker in the 6th round was actually a defensive move (long kickoffs). But the #1 offense made it to the SB last year. And they walked off the field without the trophy. The numbers don't lie. SB offenses are all over the place. But SB defenses are either consistently great throughout the season, or get hot in the playoffs. But whichever team is playing the best defense in January wins the SB virtually every time. I (obviously) can't say this enough, Shockey makes us BETTER. Not because Shockey is the greatest TE ever, but because he changes how defenses play against us, and he changes how opposing coaches plan for us. Shockey helps us the MOST by allowing us to choose the ground in the battle. He forces the opposing coaches make the plan that they HAVE to, not the plan that they WANT to. Not too many people seem to realize the significance of this. Shockey starts helping us win before the game is even played. I never really challenged the talent part of the equation. My only question is that why doesn't Shockey's production match those matchup problems? Guys like Winslow, Gates, and Gonzales get 90+ catches in a good year. Shockey has never been close to that. As far as being a "Team Cancer", everyone gripes about their jobs. Seriously, as if you have never griped about your idiot employers. I don't CARE how much he makes, if I was surrounded by idiots I would say it out loud. He is not a thug or a criminal, he has no known substance abuse problems, he will only be a problem to a dysfunctional team. Now here's where we part ways. Loudmouth malcontents MAKES teams dysfunctional. They create drama. They cause teammates to take sides, to have to defend positions, to lose focus. They take away attention from what's important, the team winning football games, and places it upon themselves. The Saints don't have any of those types of guys right now. Bringing in Shockey can make that old adage come true: One bad apple spoils the bunch. Shockey makes us better. Better is good. There is no getting around this point. You don't have to like it, but you need to accept it. There are three aspects to this better thing and you've only really addressed one: 1) Talent. A positive there. 2) Fit. Big negative there. 3) Cost. It's going to take some cheese to get the guy in here. We're going to have to give up a significant draft pick or a productive player (or both) to get him. Two out of three of these need to be a positive to make it work and right now I see it as two thumbs down. Now the really funny thing is that if I bring another talented malcontent into the discussion I'd get a completely different reaction. Pacman Jones. Now I wouldn't bring him in either for exactly the same reasons but in fact Dallas got a steal on the ledger sheet: 1) talent. I think that's been shown. 2) Fit. Triple negative here. 3) Cost. Nothing. A lowly conditional future draft pick with no bonus money in the contract. If dude doesn't work out, he gets cut and it costs Dallas nothing. The Saints will not be able to say the same with Shockey. He's a costly, risky gamble for production that has not yet to be shown to be much better than the production we've seen from the tight ends on staff. One last point, from a production standpoint I really think that Shockey has a bigger stature in fans minds than the numbers suggest. Over his career he's been averaging about 60 catches, 600 yards, and 4 TD a year. Compare to Gonzales who averages 75 catches, 900 yards, and 6 TD a year or Gates who averages 68 catches, 875 yards and nearly 9 TDs a year. So what I see is a moderately talented TE with a questionable locker room presence and a really high price tag. And you wonder why I argue that this supposed trade is a really bad idea. SFIAH
	Super Bowl Championships: New Orleans Saints:1, Carolina:0, Atlanta Chokers: STILL ZERO Only Atlanta choked in an unchokable situation... Life is definitely good.

05-06-2008, 07:46 AM	#55
saintsfan1976 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Atlanta Posts: 10,848 Blog Entries: 3	Re: payton wants shockey................... Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL Everyone keeps talking about the guy like he's the next coming of Ozzie Newsome or Shannon Sharpe. His best year was his rookie year. And that was a long time ago. Maybe. But our head coach is still relatively new to the job. Also he really hasn't had to deal with any true player adversity. I might have a different opinion if he had gone through some Chad Johnson/T.O. type drama before. You know that you are talking about a guy that went on record after a game and said that his coach can't coach? I believe I threw in that link in a previous post. Could you imagine the Shockey lockerroom press conference after losing the Tampa game on a truely stupid play last year? And you want that possibility in our locker room? The very fact that he wants off the SuperBowl champions because he wants to be a bigger part of another team speaks volumes. More than I can ever say. SFIAH Bottom Line: Shockey would make us better on the field. All the other crap has been blown out of proportion.

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05-06-2008, 07:54 AM	#56
SaintFanInATLHELL The Professor Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Lithonia, GA Posts: 2,776	Re: payton wants shockey................... Originally Posted by saintsfan1976 Bottom Line: Shockey would make us better on the field. All the other crap has been blown out of proportion. Bottom line: Shockey making us better on the field hasn't been proven. Our TE pair from last year outplayed him. Bottom line: He's a diva malcontent that thinks of himself first. This really summarizes the two sides of this thread. It can be closed now. SFIAH

05-06-2008, 08:47 AM	#57
jeanpierre Site Donor 2018 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Thibodaux Posts: 43,543 Blog Entries: 39	Re: payton wants shockey................... Shockey want to win (.) All great players want the ball at crunch time (.) Eli (see avatar to who I think is the first family of football) is no Drew Brees in regards to interpersonal relationships (.) Shockey knows what Payton knows, he can cause all kinds of havoc for a defensive coordinator (.) Putting a scheme with Shockey limits the chances of a Reggie Bush reverse being called (humour)

05-06-2008, 09:05 AM	#58
SapperSaint Pink Nightmare Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Mississippi Posts: 3,028 Blog Entries: 7	Re: payton wants shockey................... I may be crazy....but I like hearing that a "HighProfile" player WANTS to play for the Saints.

05-06-2008, 09:32 AM	#59
SaintFanInATLHELL The Professor Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Lithonia, GA Posts: 2,776	Re: payton wants shockey................... Originally Posted by jeanpierre Shockey want to win (.) The Saints have a ton of offensive players. Are you saying that they don't want to win? All great players want the ball at crunch time (.) No doubt. The question is how do they handle it when they don't get it a crunch time? I know how Brees, Reggie, Deuce, Colston, and yes Johnson and Miller will handle that. I've also seen how Shockey handles it too. Not the same reaction. Eli (see avatar to who I think is the first family of football) is no Drew Brees in regards to interpersonal relationships (.) Eli is a SB champion and MVP. Oh as a reminder, he accomplished that without Shockey. Shockey knows what Payton knows, he can cause all kinds of havoc for a defensive coordinator (.) Rehash, rehash. You're not really telling me anything that I don't already know. You still haven't addressed what I've pointed out in numerous previous posts to this thread: If Shockey creates such havoc, then why don't his numbers reflect it? Putting a scheme with Shockey limits the chances of a Reggie Bush reverse being called (humour) Apples and gorillas. That call was Payton wanting to make a splash. It was a mistake. He would have called that play if Shockey were on the field or not. But it's a lesson learned. Next time he'll run the ball into the line just like he's supposed to. Why don't ya'll just admit that you want Shockey because you like the idea, not because of any real substative evidence. All the evidence I need I have from the NYG: 1. Dude threw his coach under the bus. 2. The team won the SB without him. 3. He wants to get out because he wasn't the star in the playoff run. 4. The NYG want a king's (or fool's) ransom for him. That's all I need to see. Pass. SFIAH
	Super Bowl Championships: New Orleans Saints:1, Carolina:0, Atlanta Chokers: STILL ZERO Only Atlanta choked in an unchokable situation... Life is definitely good.

05-06-2008, 09:58 AM	#60
mikesaintfan 1000 Posts + Join Date: May 2006 Location: new jersey Posts: 1,070	Re: payton wants shockey................... question....Do you think that NFL defensive cooridinators would try to account for shockey in their weekly gameplan vs the giants? on our offense shockey would be the 4th option at best? what option was he for the Giants offense? would he not recieve less priority from oposing defense on the saints then he did on the giants? would he be able to expoit this and become a huge threat?