Jeremy Shockey

SaintFanInATLHELL · 05-06-2008, 08:32 AM

Originally Posted by jeanpierre

Shockey want to win (.)

The Saints have a ton of offensive players. Are you saying that they don't want to win?

All great players want the ball at crunch time (.)

No doubt. The question is how do they handle it when they don't get it a crunch time? I know how Brees, Reggie, Deuce, Colston, and yes Johnson and Miller will handle that. I've also seen how Shockey handles it too. Not the same reaction.

Eli (see avatar to who I think is the first family of football) is no Drew Brees in regards to interpersonal relationships (.)

Eli is a SB champion and MVP. Oh as a reminder, he accomplished that without Shockey.

Shockey knows what Payton knows, he can cause all kinds of havoc for a defensive coordinator (.)

Rehash, rehash. You're not really telling me anything that I don't already know. You still haven't addressed what I've pointed out in numerous previous posts to this thread: If Shockey creates such havoc, then why don't his numbers reflect it?

Putting a scheme with Shockey limits the chances of a Reggie Bush reverse being called (humour)

Apples and gorillas. That call was Payton wanting to make a splash. It was a mistake. He would have called that play if Shockey were on the field or not.

But it's a lesson learned. Next time he'll run the ball into the line just like he's supposed to.

Why don't ya'll just admit that you want Shockey because you like the idea, not because of any real substative evidence. All the evidence I need I have from the NYG:

1. Dude threw his coach under the bus.
2. The team won the SB without him.
3. He wants to get out because he wasn't the star in the playoff run.
4. The NYG want a king's (or fool's) ransom for him.

That's all I need to see. Pass.

SFIAH

SapperSaint · 05-06-2008, 08:05 AM

I may be crazy....but I like hearing that a "HighProfile" player WANTS to play for the Saints.

mikesaintfan · 05-06-2008, 08:58 AM

question....Do you think that NFL defensive cooridinators would try to account for shockey in their weekly gameplan vs the giants? on our offense shockey would be the 4th option at best? what option was he for the Giants offense? would he not recieve less priority from oposing defense on the saints then he did on the giants? would he be able to expoit this and become a huge threat?

SaintFanInATLHELL · 05-06-2008, 09:24 AM

Originally Posted by mikesaintfan

question....Do you think that NFL defensive cooridinators would try to account for shockey in their weekly gameplan vs the giants? on our offense shockey would be the 4th option at best? what option was he for the Giants offense? would he not recieve less priority from oposing defense on the saints then he did on the giants? would he be able to expoit this and become a huge threat?

Question: Substitute Eric Johnson and Billy Miller into the above question.

On our offense the TE is the 4th option at best. Would the Saints be able to exploit this and become a huge threat.

The Saints TE had more catches, yards, and TDs than Shockey. So exactly why are they not already a huge threat?

And I'm going to pound my point into submission: Johnson and Miller accomplish this without any drama. Is upgrading the TE position, which you admit is a 4th option worth the drama? Worth the cost (most likely a 1st round draft pick next year or a starting player)?

Talent? Yes. Drama? Yes. Cost? Hefty.

Can some Shockey Jockey please address the issues of attitude and cost? You guys are really losing on the production argument.

Pass

SFIAH

mikesaintfan · 05-08-2008, 07:19 AM

Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL

Question: Substitute Eric Johnson and Billy Miller into the above question.

On our offense the TE is the 4th option at best. Would the Saints be able to exploit this and become a huge threat.

The Saints TE had more catches, yards, and TDs than Shockey. So exactly why are they not already a huge threat?

And I'm going to pound my point into submission: Johnson and Miller accomplish this without any drama. Is upgrading the TE position, which you admit is a 4th option worth the drama? Worth the cost (most likely a 1st round draft pick next year or a starting player)?

Talent? Yes. Drama? Yes. Cost? Hefty.

Can some Shockey Jockey please address the issues of attitude and cost? You guys are really losing on the production argument.

Pass

SFIAH

so billy miller and eric johnson vs defenses that dont care about them equaling shockeys catches vs defenses that plan for him as a big time player is a good thing? if other teams place more focus on shockey and keep him at bm/ej stats what does that do for colston, bush, duece and meachum/patten/henderson?

SaintFanInATLHELL · 05-08-2008, 09:28 AM

Originally Posted by mikesaintfan

so billy miller and eric johnson vs defenses that dont care about them equaling shockeys catches vs defenses that plan for him as a big time player is a good thing?

With the relative costs? Absolutely!

BTW Miller and Johnson are not playing 11 on 10. The defense have to account for them too. A safety or a LB have to cover them.

if other teams place more focus on shockey and keep him at bm/ej stats what does that do for colston, bush, duece and meachum/patten/henderson?

I'm going to keep saying the word until it gets addressed. Let's try three times:

cost, Cost, and COST!

If Shockey were free, I'd take him. If Shockey could be had for next year's 5th, I'd take him. If I could foist Bullocks onto the Giants for Shockey I'd take him.

Dude, the Giants wanted Harper and a 2nd round pick for Shockey. OUCH!!!

Now the financial and team chemistry costs, which are related. You think Shockey is going to be satisfied just being a part of an offense at his current price? He's going to want to be the centerpiece of the offense and want to get paid premium TE money for the privilege.

What impact do you think that Mr. Unhappy is going to bring to the Locker Room. Shockey hasn't participated with anything with the Giants AFAICT. That's the kind of "team player" you want in the Saints locker room?

Let me see if I can give you an oddball example. With gas prices going through the roof, I've been looking at electric cars. You can find my dream car right here:

Tesla Motors

0-60 in 3.9 S, 2 cents a mile to drive, 220 miles per charge. A dream electric car...

...That costs $100,000 for the base model!

With Shockey I'm not even going to bother continuing to argue the production angle. I'm even willing to stipulate to the production of the TE position, even if I don't really believe it's going to be as much an impact as ya'll do.

But Shockey isn't a Saint right now because of costs. It's going to be a painfully high price to bring him in. Those costs can impact the Saints for years to come.

Are you sure you're willing to pay it?

SFIAH

SapperSaint · 05-06-2008, 10:11 AM

So exactly why are they not already a huge threat?

Because Billy and Eric are not household names. We are hearing a name we all know and feel that he is a better player than who we have now. I can't say is or isn't right now, just because we have beat this dead horse into a puddle of mud. If JS does become a member of this team if truely feel Drew can and will control him and put him in his place.

JKool · 05-06-2008, 10:38 AM

SFIAH, you are the one-man anti-Shockey show these days.

I'm getting on board with what you are saying, but I have to take issue with the so called "productivity" argument.

Bottom line: Shockey making us better on the field hasn't been proven. Our TE pair from last year outplayed him.

What is the famous saying? Apples and Oranges (or Gorillas, if you prefer).

Usually I'm a big fan of the stats arguments, but a little more has to go into this one before you get "roughly equal or better" productivity as a conclusion. Here is what I take the argument to be:

P1. Number of catches and yards gained is a good indicator of production.
P2. Two of our TEs when combined have roughly the same number of catches and yards gained.
C. Our two TEs have the same production as Shockey.

That sounds ok (though I have no idea of P2 is true).

The problem is that the Conclusion (C) includes a third element, the team they played for. So here are the two additional premises (though there may be more) that need to be argued before I'll completely buy the conclusion.

P3 - The Giants and the Saints use the TE in roughly the same way.
P4 - The Giants and the Saints faced roughly similar talented Defenses last season.

I think it is possible that these are both true, but I don't know. To convince me on the productivity point, at least some work has to be done here.

I suspect P3 is false (again, just my best guess) and this will make it difficult to make the "equal productivity" argument work.

Another way to go would be to show that the statistical points "wash out" the relative differences in "the way the TE is used" in both schemes. I think that would be pretty convincing too.

I do, however, recognize that the productivity argument is just one piece of the whole puzzle for your claim that we shouldn't pursue Shockey (and the other parts stand on their own). I just think that this part could be a bit more convincing.

Tobias-Reiper · 05-06-2008, 12:25 PM

... couple of things you guys are overlooking in your analysis:

1.- Drew Brees
2.- Sean Payton

The only reason why the TE is the 4th option in the Saints offense is because they are not that good. Our best TE last year was Billy Miller, not because of the stats, but because the plays he made.

Now, are Billy Miller/Eric Johnson as good as Shockey?
Are Billy Miller/Eric Johnson as good as Shockey if Eli is throwing the ball to them and Kevin Gilbride is calling the plays?

... I don't think so.

Papa Voodoo · 05-06-2008, 12:42 PM

Have any of our TEs been to the Pro Bowl and how many times comapred to Shockey? Guys, If Peyton wants him there is a good reason.

05-06-2008, 08:32 AM	#1
SaintFanInATLHELL The Professor Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Lithonia, GA Posts: 2,783	Re: payton wants shockey................... Originally Posted by jeanpierre Shockey want to win (.) The Saints have a ton of offensive players. Are you saying that they don't want to win? All great players want the ball at crunch time (.) No doubt. The question is how do they handle it when they don't get it a crunch time? I know how Brees, Reggie, Deuce, Colston, and yes Johnson and Miller will handle that. I've also seen how Shockey handles it too. Not the same reaction. Eli (see avatar to who I think is the first family of football) is no Drew Brees in regards to interpersonal relationships (.) Eli is a SB champion and MVP. Oh as a reminder, he accomplished that without Shockey. Shockey knows what Payton knows, he can cause all kinds of havoc for a defensive coordinator (.) Rehash, rehash. You're not really telling me anything that I don't already know. You still haven't addressed what I've pointed out in numerous previous posts to this thread: If Shockey creates such havoc, then why don't his numbers reflect it? Putting a scheme with Shockey limits the chances of a Reggie Bush reverse being called (humour) Apples and gorillas. That call was Payton wanting to make a splash. It was a mistake. He would have called that play if Shockey were on the field or not. But it's a lesson learned. Next time he'll run the ball into the line just like he's supposed to. Why don't ya'll just admit that you want Shockey because you like the idea, not because of any real substative evidence. All the evidence I need I have from the NYG: 1. Dude threw his coach under the bus. 2. The team won the SB without him. 3. He wants to get out because he wasn't the star in the playoff run. 4. The NYG want a king's (or fool's) ransom for him. That's all I need to see. Pass. SFIAH
	Super Bowl Championships: New Orleans Saints:1, Carolina:0, Atlanta Chokers: STILL ZERO Only Atlanta choked in an unchokable situation... Life is definitely good.

05-06-2008, 08:05 AM	#2
SapperSaint Pink Nightmare Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Mississippi Posts: 3,028 Blog Entries: 7	Re: payton wants shockey................... I may be crazy....but I like hearing that a "HighProfile" player WANTS to play for the Saints.

05-06-2008, 08:58 AM	#3
mikesaintfan 1000 Posts + Join Date: May 2006 Location: new jersey Posts: 1,070	Re: payton wants shockey................... question....Do you think that NFL defensive cooridinators would try to account for shockey in their weekly gameplan vs the giants? on our offense shockey would be the 4th option at best? what option was he for the Giants offense? would he not recieve less priority from oposing defense on the saints then he did on the giants? would he be able to expoit this and become a huge threat?

05-06-2008, 09:24 AM	#4
SaintFanInATLHELL The Professor Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Lithonia, GA Posts: 2,783	Re: payton wants shockey................... Originally Posted by mikesaintfan question....Do you think that NFL defensive cooridinators would try to account for shockey in their weekly gameplan vs the giants? on our offense shockey would be the 4th option at best? what option was he for the Giants offense? would he not recieve less priority from oposing defense on the saints then he did on the giants? would he be able to expoit this and become a huge threat? Question: Substitute Eric Johnson and Billy Miller into the above question. On our offense the TE is the 4th option at best. Would the Saints be able to exploit this and become a huge threat. The Saints TE had more catches, yards, and TDs than Shockey. So exactly why are they not already a huge threat? And I'm going to pound my point into submission: Johnson and Miller accomplish this without any drama. Is upgrading the TE position, which you admit is a 4th option worth the drama? Worth the cost (most likely a 1st round draft pick next year or a starting player)? Talent? Yes. Drama? Yes. Cost? Hefty. Can some Shockey Jockey please address the issues of attitude and cost? You guys are really losing on the production argument. Pass SFIAH
	Super Bowl Championships: New Orleans Saints:1, Carolina:0, Atlanta Chokers: STILL ZERO Only Atlanta choked in an unchokable situation... Life is definitely good.

05-08-2008, 07:19 AM	#5
mikesaintfan 1000 Posts + Join Date: May 2006 Location: new jersey Posts: 1,070	Re: payton wants shockey................... Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL Question: Substitute Eric Johnson and Billy Miller into the above question. On our offense the TE is the 4th option at best. Would the Saints be able to exploit this and become a huge threat. The Saints TE had more catches, yards, and TDs than Shockey. So exactly why are they not already a huge threat? And I'm going to pound my point into submission: Johnson and Miller accomplish this without any drama. Is upgrading the TE position, which you admit is a 4th option worth the drama? Worth the cost (most likely a 1st round draft pick next year or a starting player)? Talent? Yes. Drama? Yes. Cost? Hefty. Can some Shockey Jockey please address the issues of attitude and cost? You guys are really losing on the production argument. Pass SFIAH so billy miller and eric johnson vs defenses that dont care about them equaling shockeys catches vs defenses that plan for him as a big time player is a good thing? if other teams place more focus on shockey and keep him at bm/ej stats what does that do for colston, bush, duece and meachum/patten/henderson?

05-08-2008, 09:28 AM	#6
SaintFanInATLHELL The Professor Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Lithonia, GA Posts: 2,783	Re: payton wants shockey................... Originally Posted by mikesaintfan so billy miller and eric johnson vs defenses that dont care about them equaling shockeys catches vs defenses that plan for him as a big time player is a good thing? With the relative costs? Absolutely! BTW Miller and Johnson are not playing 11 on 10. The defense have to account for them too. A safety or a LB have to cover them. if other teams place more focus on shockey and keep him at bm/ej stats what does that do for colston, bush, duece and meachum/patten/henderson? I'm going to keep saying the word until it gets addressed. Let's try three times: cost, Cost, and COST! If Shockey were free, I'd take him. If Shockey could be had for next year's 5th, I'd take him. If I could foist Bullocks onto the Giants for Shockey I'd take him. Dude, the Giants wanted Harper and a 2nd round pick for Shockey. OUCH!!! Now the financial and team chemistry costs, which are related. You think Shockey is going to be satisfied just being a part of an offense at his current price? He's going to want to be the centerpiece of the offense and want to get paid premium TE money for the privilege. What impact do you think that Mr. Unhappy is going to bring to the Locker Room. Shockey hasn't participated with anything with the Giants AFAICT. That's the kind of "team player" you want in the Saints locker room? Let me see if I can give you an oddball example. With gas prices going through the roof, I've been looking at electric cars. You can find my dream car right here: Tesla Motors 0-60 in 3.9 S, 2 cents a mile to drive, 220 miles per charge. A dream electric car... ...That costs $100,000 for the base model! With Shockey I'm not even going to bother continuing to argue the production angle. I'm even willing to stipulate to the production of the TE position, even if I don't really believe it's going to be as much an impact as ya'll do. But Shockey isn't a Saint right now because of costs. It's going to be a painfully high price to bring him in. Those costs can impact the Saints for years to come. Are you sure you're willing to pay it? SFIAH
	Super Bowl Championships: New Orleans Saints:1, Carolina:0, Atlanta Chokers: STILL ZERO Only Atlanta choked in an unchokable situation... Life is definitely good.

05-06-2008, 10:11 AM	#7
SapperSaint Pink Nightmare Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Mississippi Posts: 3,028 Blog Entries: 7	Re: payton wants shockey................... So exactly why are they not already a huge threat? Because Billy and Eric are not household names. We are hearing a name we all know and feel that he is a better player than who we have now. I can't say is or isn't right now, just because we have beat this dead horse into a puddle of mud. If JS does become a member of this team if truely feel Drew can and will control him and put him in his place.

05-06-2008, 10:38 AM	#8
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	Re: payton wants shockey................... SFIAH, you are the one-man anti-Shockey show these days. I'm getting on board with what you are saying, but I have to take issue with the so called "productivity" argument. Bottom line: Shockey making us better on the field hasn't been proven. Our TE pair from last year outplayed him. What is the famous saying? Apples and Oranges (or Gorillas, if you prefer). Usually I'm a big fan of the stats arguments, but a little more has to go into this one before you get "roughly equal or better" productivity as a conclusion. Here is what I take the argument to be: P1. Number of catches and yards gained is a good indicator of production. P2. Two of our TEs when combined have roughly the same number of catches and yards gained. C. Our two TEs have the same production as Shockey. That sounds ok (though I have no idea of P2 is true). The problem is that the Conclusion (C) includes a third element, the team they played for. So here are the two additional premises (though there may be more) that need to be argued before I'll completely buy the conclusion. P3 - The Giants and the Saints use the TE in roughly the same way. P4 - The Giants and the Saints faced roughly similar talented Defenses last season. I think it is possible that these are both true, but I don't know. To convince me on the productivity point, at least some work has to be done here. I suspect P3 is false (again, just my best guess) and this will make it difficult to make the "equal productivity" argument work. Another way to go would be to show that the statistical points "wash out" the relative differences in "the way the TE is used" in both schemes. I think that would be pretty convincing too. I do, however, recognize that the productivity argument is just one piece of the whole puzzle for your claim that we shouldn't pursue Shockey (and the other parts stand on their own). I just think that this part could be a bit more convincing.
	"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks

05-06-2008, 12:25 PM	#9
Tobias-Reiper Merces Letifer Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 4,161	Re: payton wants shockey................... ... couple of things you guys are overlooking in your analysis: 1.- Drew Brees 2.- Sean Payton The only reason why the TE is the 4th option in the Saints offense is because they are not that good. Our best TE last year was Billy Miller, not because of the stats, but because the plays he made. Now, are Billy Miller/Eric Johnson as good as Shockey? Are Billy Miller/Eric Johnson as good as Shockey if Eli is throwing the ball to them and Kevin Gilbride is calling the plays? ... I don't think so.

05-06-2008, 12:42 PM	#10
Papa Voodoo 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 1,634	Re: payton wants shockey................... Have any of our TEs been to the Pro Bowl and how many times comapred to Shockey? Guys, If Peyton wants him there is a good reason.