Re: 2015 draft??
 

I answered the question, I don't think either one of his options will amount to much

Re: 2015 draft??
 

Mel Kiper and Todd McShay go head-to-head in three-round mock - 2015 NFL draft

I absolutely hate this draft for the Saints...

Re: 2015 draft??
 

David Johnson, RB, Northern Iowa - could be a bigger version of PT

DL,
RAY DREW, GEORGIA - may slip through the cracks
QUAYSHAWNE BUCKLEY, IDAHO. - another upside UDFA type

CB
Craig Mager Texas State - I am really liking this kid. tough as nails
Darryl Roberts Marshal - upside and speed

OT
Darryl Baldwin, Ohio State - upside surprise in the draft one year starter at OT. 2 years you might have something to work with
Jake Smith, Louisville - interior versatility

WR
Stefon Diggs, WR, Maryland - would look great in the slot
Tony Lippett, Michigan State - probably the quickest reaction time of all WR and CB. yep dbls as a CB also
DeAndre Smelter, Georgia Tech - solid all around game but talk about blocking skills
Cameron Meredith Illinois State - project sure but he is a pure hands catcher
Tyrell Williams Western Oregon - could be a steal as an UDFA

Re: 2015 draft??
 

Thoughts on the Georgia ILB(im tired sure his name is Ramik Wilson)

Re: 2015 draft??
 

I am not an insider sorry so it looks like the comish took picks from everyone

Re: 2015 draft??
 

3 of the 5 picks I really like.

I like...Gregory, Cann and Petty

I'm not crazy about.....Devin Smith and Darby

Replace the Smith pick with Eric Kendricks or Stephone Anthony and replace Darby with a WR or a OT and I'd be very happy.

Re: 2015 draft??
 

Wilson is another ILB that is not getting a lot love either. I watched him a bit and did not think he was as bad they are saying. i thought he was solid. nothing fabulous but better than some of the over hyped talent ahead of him.

ILB lately are taking a bashing in the draft and falling like flies the past few years. If this continues the saints should look hard at UDFA at ILB. some seriously good talent is out there as UDFA. many better than the bums we have been picking late in the draft.

Christian Jones,Florida State went undrafted and showed up in chicago and turned heads as an UDFA

A failed drug test at last year's Combine torpedoed Jones' draft stock, but he flashed enough talent over 443 snaps as a rookie to at least be in the conversation for a starting role this season. An athletic player with decent coverage skills, Jones would fit well as the weakside inside linebacker in the Bears' 3-4 scheme. He will compete with Jon Bostic and Mason Foster in camp. Apr 18 - 9:53 AM

Christian Jones - Chicago Bears - 2015 Player Profile - Rotoworld.com

round 7 was well worth the risk IMO

this is when i really wonder about the persons making the calls in the draft.

If Wilson falls in the draft and we pick yet another bone head i will be :brood:

Re: 2015 draft??
 

I was hoping we would have got Jones as a UDFA last year. I was hoping for AJ Johnson this year till he torpedoed himself

Re: 2015 draft??
 

I'm not an Insider and I didn't see Vic B in the top 9. Anyone know where they have him landing as a potential 1st rd pick?

Re: 2015 draft??
 

I read somewhere that Donovan Smith and Jake Fisher could be 1st round picks. We should adress O-line early (1st/2nd round) because I don't know there will be quality players (starter material) in later rounds.

I wouldn't mind drafting Collins #13. (if Scherff is not there)
Starting LG for the next decade.

Re: 2015 draft??
 

and those two slap dicks didn't have Beasley in the first round

Re: 2015 draft??
 

I'm thinking about something... Here's a way that we could recoup the 4th round pick that we traded away. Let's say if Bryce Petty is still available when our 2nd round pick rolls around (and he will be)... Who picks after us in the 2nd round that might be interested in trading up for him with a 4th round pick as compensation? Arizona, San Diego, Kansas City, Buffalo?? Thoughts?

Re: 2015 draft??
 

Add Jalen Collins to the naughty boys list. Multiple failed drug tests at LSU

Re: 2015 draft??
 

question 1 - are the saints really solid on tim lelito at LG?

got me. but if not the saints are so close to finishing the OL it almost would be a shame not to. but this would not be the first time they stopped when they were this close.

try this on for size

No Offensive Linemen in the Top 10

Now Brandon Scherff is listed as the best offensive lineman on the draft. But some view him as either an elite guard or an above-average tackle. Same goes for La’el Collin.

Now what? trade up to ten before the Rams pick? package or first and a second and go after him? Odds are highly unlikely he getting through the next group of teams ahead of us.

Or trade back a few and grab La’el Collin? gamble the trend holds true and a run wont start on the OL just yet?

I would hope and pray and stay at 13. If a team calls to leap frog Miami i would do it if it is a player we are not in love with. Texans and the Chargers are my prime trade down suspects in this case. their shopping list for the draft are pretty much the same as miami. So pick 16 or 17 for La’el Collin with additional pick involved would be perfect IMO. If the draft gods are on our side.

Next Question 2 - Is Harris really Zach replacement or the best backup we can come up with? :rolleyes:

I am not that sold on true OT in this draft. Jake Fisher is a favorite of mine and my #1 true OT in the draft, for the saints. Fisher is just the perfect zone blocking OT right out of the box on draft day. I would not be surprised to see him go earlier than most think.

He is a swing OT that is so close to being a starter it almost hurts. Plus he is probably the most athletic OT in the draft. Most penalized too. that is were a change in system and some coaching will make some huge differences in his game. I think he is what the new pass happy NFL is going to require at ROT from here out. Defenses are drafting pass rush specialists st both ends now. So the old stereo type RT are becoming a thing of the past.

I over value the ability to move OL players around to cover for injury with out a huge drop off.

Donovan Smith round 1? wow that would be a shock. bottom half of two would not floor me but making a move to get him at the top of third seems more than likely. after Scherff and Collin i like Smith for that OT to OG skill set. Daryl Williams Mitch Morse Jeremiah Poutasi are next on the list.

now i have a new one to keep an eye on

Darryl Baldwin 6-6 305 might be the best OT/OG boobie prize of the draft

4.96 in the forty? It is the 1.77 ten, 7.39 cone and 30 reps on the bench that shocked me. I watched him play a good bit and like what i saw but never thought he would put up these type of numbers. The issue with him is he is RAW as Raw as you can get. A one year starter at ROT. A convert defensive player but has a ton of upside. he might be the pick that calmly shocks everyone going so early before the 6/7 rating he has and floors them by seasons end at how bad they all miss judge him.

Every year there is a shocker. every one talks about Gaines, E.J. as the player we all missed going in the 6th round to the Rams. Actually I think most of us were surprised he fell that far.

But my vote for the player we all screwed the pooch on goes to Justin Britt OT Missouri. a solid mid to late day 3 pick? yeah right:p. To seattle with pick 64 and started right away. talk about over scouting a players.

that is why i hate draft boards now. every one is over analyzing the players and not wanting to be the fool and miss rank the next great player. or wear the "see i told you so" crown. so Darryl Baldwin is my entry ;)

Boring but i could live with it
La’el Collin goes to LG
Jake Fisher 1 year of grooming RT
Darryl Baldwin 2 years of groomed to RG

Re: 2015 draft??
 

If we want a fourth round pick, move back into the second round by trading our first round pick, No. 31 (600 pts) ...

with Washington for their second round pick, No. 38 (520 pts) and their fourth round pick (84 pts)...

ILB Stephone Anthony should be their in the second round...

...and in the fourth round you could take a seam route receiver like Chris Conley out of Georgia...

...or get defensive end depth like Corey Crawford, also a Clemson alum...

...or take a guard Mark Glowinski, West Virginia...

Source: 2015 NFL Draft Trade Value Chart

Re: 2015 draft??
 

You want a right tackle for the Saints...here he is...

Pick No. 078 (R3, 14) OT Rob Havenstein, Wisconsin, 6' 7", 321 lbs. (Via Miami) *3

Very much in the mould of Zach Strief; though he had poor measurables, they showed significant improvement between combine and pro-day; excellent candidate to tutelage behind Strief and could be ready by year three when Strief's contract expires; excellent depth regardless; he plays with great functional strength and his Bench Press improvement shows he can get it done in the weight room...

Re: 2015 draft??
 

The best OT in this year's draft will be RT from Florida.

Re: 2015 draft??
 

Kendricks. Fast. Best all-around. Can stop the run (finally) and cover (finally). Instinctive. Bloodlines with a brother starting and drafted high, too. Safe pick and we need safe when drafting LBs (finally).

Too small? Not if we've big D-linemen in front and not if his instinctive cause him to not be "there" for the block.

Re: 2015 draft??
 

McShay and Scouts, Inc seem to be on an anti-Vic tear and they've even got Kiper to buy in...

Geaux figure...

They had him selected in the second round...

Be fine with me if Beasley was there for the Saints to select at 13...

Of course my head explodes if Payton takes a WR like Dorsett there...

Re: 2015 draft??
 

Which one? D.J. Humphries?

Re: 2015 draft??
 

Fisher and D.J. Humphries are neck and neck but injury flag drops Flowers a bit. DJ i fear his ceiling is low.

Flowers? he is a solid project that is not as polished as Fisher but Fisher is not the run blocker Flowers is. Flowers i see a traditional ROT. he is not as athletic as i would like to see the saints get. nasty as hell i have to admit. which is always a good thing

Havenstein? sure later in the draft is a solid option. traditional Rt all the way. Speed rush in the NFL will target him just like Flowers.

Fisher just more of a finished product in his fundamentals than any of the others. So the foundation is there to build on from day one. Refinement is all that is needed.

ALL of the others still need foundation work.

Flowers will go before Fisher

DJ might just go ahead of Fisher and that is what i am hoping for.

then Fisher should be on the board when we pick at 31

I just do not think a traditional RT is the right direction to go. Not when dealing with the elite defenses in the NFL during the playoff. We paid a heck of a price for a center and are praying the LG works out some how. if LG does work up Drew will be stepping up all game long again. The OT need to deal with speed quickness and push DE wide of the pocket and not give up the inside rush. have two of the quick OT in the NFL is were the league is going. Defense are now all about speed pass rush on the outside. that is what all the elite playoff teams have now.

So athletic polish wins out at 31 in my book

Re: 2015 draft??
 

Trade Back Draft (Updated)

http://fanspeak.com/ontheclock/premi...t.php?d=wrsefg

Pick Pos Name, Alma Mater, Height, Weight

Pick No. 013 (R1, 13) LB Vic Beasley, Clemson, 6' 3", 246 lbs. (Via Oakland) *1

Other than Scherff or Leonard Williams, this is the only player in the top 15 to truly have the biggest impact on our team; VB gets the edge over Scherff as the Iowa alum lacks perimeter skills at Tackle but should become an elite guard; with only one question mark on the offensive line, Tim Lelito, and the Saints answer so far seems they’re fine by not pursuing a free agent; but it’s last season’s dismal performance by the defense is what makes Beasley’s selection so demanding; Vic Beasley is the game-changing, difference maker needed, and with big defensive ends like Akiem Hicks who can stall, occupy double-teams, Beasley will be free to harrass quarterbacks and reduce coverage time demand on our defensive backs; I’d be willing to trade this pick and a future first to move up to select Beasley...

Pick No. 031 (R1, 31) (Via Seattle, Traded to Jacksonville) *2

Pick No. 036 (R2, 4) WR Dorial Green-Beckham, Missouri via Oklahoma, 6' 5", 237 lbs. (Via Jacksonville) *2

Let me disclose that I’m not a fan of what this kid has demonstrated in terms of character and personality, nor his parents coddling, enabling said behavior, but he has unique talent and for it to be here can’t be ignored; this pick would be hard for me to reverse course, but added is the opportunity to address a successor to Marques Colston at the “x” position and would be irresistible to Payton; further, can’t think of a better locker room in the NFL for this kid than with Payton, Brees, Colston and Cooks; plus, he’ll spend his rookie season developing at the “y” in 3-wideout formations running the seams, fly routes, just really destroying defensive backfields similar to another poor-start character, Randy Moss...

Pick No. 044 (R2, 12) LB Stephone Anthony, Clemson, 6' 2⅜", 243 lbs.

Here fill a demand need at ILB and get the guy where nearly all talent evaluators have him ranked; am really nervous to let him go through the gambit of JAX, CHI, ATL, CLE and still have him available, if DGB isn’t there at pick 36, I’d probably reach and take Anthony then; now, the Saints defense is in as much dire need of an impact ILB as an OLB; regardless if Ellerbe recovers or Hawthorne returns to form, this linebacker has the athleticism, versatility and nastiness to raise the bar at ILB and score green or whatever PFF chooses; he’s self-motivated as evidence in his off-season training with at XPE Sports with Tony Villani and should help to quickly transform the attitude of the defense...

Pick No. 075 (R3, 11) CB Alex Carter, Stanford, 6' 0", 196 lbs.

Despite still having a year of eligibility left, this three year starter (yes, he started at Stanford, Pac 10, as a true freshman) Carter presents great value here as a prototypical CB coming from a college that runs pro-style formations and churns out quality, smart football players; while his measurable aren’t elite, remembering he’s still developing, they are already ideal and he can tutelage under two quality CBs in Keenan Lewis and Brandon Browner; he’s seasoned and faced top competition in the Pac 10 week-in, week-out, many of whom are or will be in the NFL in short order; After Toi Cook and Leigh Torrence, Stanford owes us a good CB...

Pick No. 078 (R3, 14) OT Rob Havenstein, Wisconsin, 6' 7", 321 lbs. (Via Miami) *3

This guy is very much in the mould of Zach Strief; and though he had poor Combine measurables, they’ve significant improvement through to his pro-day; he’d have a great mentor, teacher in Strief and could be ready when Strief's contract expires; in fact, he could provide excellent depth regardless; he plays with great functional strength forcing speed rushers on longer arcing pass rush paths and is devastatingly effective in the run game, especially at the second level; with his athleticism being the question, he’s answered that with his Bench Press improvement – and that’s a plus as it shows he can get it done in the weight room...

Pick No. 103 (R4, 04) DE Corey Crawford, Clemson, 6' 5", 299 lbs. (Via Jacksonville) *1

This is a lot of Clemson, but I don't care if they all came from the same High School - These Cats Can Ball! Crawford has ideal size and speed for a 3-4 DE and is probably getting overlooked because of the awesome talent that's already there; plus, he could come in and offer excellent leverage should the inconsistent Jordan continue with unreasonable contract demands; address d-line depth at the minimal...

Pick No. 112 (R4, 13) (Traded to Seattle) *2

Pick No. 148 (R5, 12) TE Blake Bell, Oklahoma, 6' 6", 252 lbs.

Like another kid that once played TE for the Saints, he's a big body with a small sample size, but it's impressive; former QB developing quickly into a red zone threat who could more than offer a rather large bucket to throw for our QB to score in the end zone...

Pick No. 154 (R5, 18) (Via Kansas City, Traded to Jacksonville) *4, *1

Pick No. 187 (R6, 11) OG Mark Glowinski, Georgia, 6' 4", 307 lbs.

Waited to address Guard because if Payton, Loomis, Ireland were concerned with Lelito and/or Evans, they’d have easily matched and signed Clint Boling for what Cincy paid; West Virginia OL has gone under the radar with teammate WR Kevin White getting all the attention, but he’s shown tremendous upper body strength, intelligence in quickly adapting to what NFL scout are coaching, and a quiet, nasty disposition; he’ll need a year, maybe two and then he should impress...

Pick No. 230 (R7, 13) NT Deon Simon, Northwestern St (LA); 6’ 4⅜”, 321 lbs.

Great big, raw body that with the right coaching would be the steal of the draft; Bill Belichick even sat in and participated in his combine interview. This’ll be Bunkley's last season and to jumpstart another candidate for the NT rotation with Jenkins, well, we don't have to go far for this in-state product...

*1 Mock Trade - NO sends Picks 031 (R1, 31) and 154 (R5, 18) to JAX for Pick 036 (R2, 04), 103 (R4, 04).

*2 Graham Trade - NO sends All-Pro TE Jimmy Graham and Pick 112 (R4, 13) to SEA for All-Pro C Max Unger and Pick 031 (R1, 31)

*3 Stills Trade - NO sends WR Kenny Stills to MIA for LB Dannell Ellerbe and Pick 078 (R3, 14)

*4 Grubbs Trade - NO sends LG Ben Grubbs to KC for Pick 154 (R5, 18).

Alternate Selections/Priority Free Agents:

TE Brian Parker, Albany, 6' 4", 260 lbs.
DE James Rouse, Marshall, 6' 5", 277 lbs.
LB Gabriel Martin, Bowling Green, 6' 2", 235 lbs.
OL Jon Feliciano, Miami (Fl), 6' 4", 323 lbs.
WR Jake Kumerow, Wisconsin-Whitewater, 6' 4½", 208 lbs.
OT Jake Rodgers, Eastern Washington, 6' 6", 315 lbs.
LB Tony Washington, Oregon, 6' 4", 245 lbs.
OL Tyler Moore, Florida, 6' 4", 325 lbs.
DL Olsen Pierre, Miami (FL), 6' 4", 300 lbs.
LB Andrew Hudson, Washington, 6' 2", 250 lbs.
RB Michael Dyer, Auburn via Louisville, 5' 8", 218 lbs.
LB James Vaughters, Stanford, 6' 2", 248 lbs.
DL Travis Raciti, San Jose St, 6' 4", 288 lbs.
LB David Mayo, Texas State, 6' 2", 230 lbs.
DL Brian Mihalik, Boston College, 6' 9", 302 lbs.

Re: 2015 draft??
 

In this deal I would take

Pick No. 036 Stephone Anthony

then gamble with Dorial to drop 44. Even then i may pass on him. here i would look hard at OL and CB

man coverage skills are what we need IMO with the state of this defense. I just do not see it in this kids game.

round 3 i think is were a WR can be had

so i guess I see the players filling needs round 2 and 3 are just reversed.

round 3 on is always fun. manyyyy options

Re: 2015 draft??
 

And that's probably the way to go maybe, second round go Dorsett, Carl Davis or PJ Williams...

I really like WR Chris Conley, Georgia with that second third rounder or nab him with the fourth rounder if he's still there; he's got that extra gear and would be an ideal complement to Colston and Cooks, plus he's 6' 2", getting back to taller receivers with larger catch radii...

But with DGB being there with that combination of height, speed, range - Couldn't pass up the opportunity......

Now Colston has been a soldier, playing through that same injury for the past several years (I suspect it's an arthritic condition as to why it's been a chronic, slowing injury)...

Another consideration is you get back some of that taller red-zone threat and those hail mary's at the half type of thing traded to Seattle...

And now's really a good time to bring in a new "x" receiver to tutelage under Colston, having an ideal peer in Cooks, a walking, talking HOFer in Brees, a rededicated, rejuvenated Payton...

And I love Cooks; he's already one of the best, dynamic flanker in the NFL, but at his height/size, he won't survive an NFL season as a x-wideout...

That's more of my arguments for DGB; he won't be there when we pick mid-round second, as by then he would have gone through picks by Washington, New York (J), Chicago, St Louis, Cleveland who can also afford to gamble with their second round picks and have definite need at WR...

Re: 2015 draft??
 

My latest couple of mocks of Fanspeak(1st) first-pick(2nd)


13: R1.P13
OT BRANDON SCHERFF
IOWA

31: R1P31
DE ELI HAROLD
VIRGINIA

44: R2P12
DT CARL DAVIS
IOWA

75: R3P11
ILB PAUL DAWSON
TCU

78: R3P14
G ALI MARPET
HOBART

148: R5P12
CB CHARLES GAINES
LOUISVILLE

154: R5P18
TE NICK O'LEARY
FLORIDA STATE

187: R6P11
OT COREY ROBINSON
SOUTH CAROLINA

230: R7P13
QB SEAN MANNION
OREGON STATE

Didn't plan on two guards early but i do that if Marpet was there in the third.
Let Scherff,Marpet and Lelito fight out for the LG spot. After next year we have a interior of Marpet-Unger-Scherff. Corey Robinson can sit for a year or two learning from Strief.





Made a trade with the Bengals getting there picks 1/2/3
Another trade R3.21 for R3.31/R4.13/R6.05
Traded back into early R4 for both R5 and R6/7 picks to grab a QB
Then traded again R6.05 for R6.10/R7.28



Round 1 Pick 21 (CINN): Danny Shelton, DT, Washington
Round 1 Pick 31: Jake Fisher, OT/OG, Oregon
Round 2 Pick 12: Owamagbe Odighizuwa, DE/OLB, UCLA
Round 2 Pick 21 (CINN): Phillip Dorsett, WR, Miami (Fla.)
Round 3 Pick 11: Paul Dawson, OLB/ILB, TCU
Round 3 Pick 14: Clive Walford, TE, Miami (Fla.)
Round 3 Pick 31 (SEA): Senquez Golson, CB, Ole Miss
Round 4 Pick 13 (SEA): Frank Clark, DE/OLB, Michigan
Round 4 Pick 15 (MIA): Garrett Grayson, QB, Colorado State
Round 6 Pick 10 (NYG): Darren Waller, WR/TE, Georgia Tech
Round 7 Pick 28 (NYG): Ray Drew, DE, Georgia

Re: 2015 draft??
 

I have to say both ways are solid. I'm not a big fan of Davis though. If by some chance we get him I hope(really, really hope) I'm wrong. I would much rather have the NT out of Oklahoma. I notice Grayson in there, I like him but I like Petty more.

Re: 2015 draft??
 

Yeah Petty looks good but went to early on the simulator. That why i moved back in for Grayson.

I really like the idea of getting Golson. A bit smaller than others but the perfect CB3 to cover the slot. With him and Byrd roaming anything off target in the middle of the field should lead to turnovers

Re: 2015 draft??
 

I like Goldon also he has mad skills. Size means nothing look at Revis.

Re: 2015 draft??
 

My 3 round mock:

13: R1P13
DT DANNY SHELTON
WASHINGTON

31: R1P31
OT ANDRUS PEAT
STANFORD

44: R2P12
ILB DENZEL PERRYMAN
MIAMI

75: R3P11
G ALI MARPET
HOBART

78: R3P14
WR PHILLIP DORSETT
MIAMI

Re: 2015 draft??
 

Have been bullish on Ali Marpet for some time...

But two different scouting reports said basically the same thing...

Everyone acknowledges his athleticism and attitude as being fantastic...

But in the two reports both said that he was a "project"...

Didn't we learn our lesson last year in drafting a second round project?

Finks and Mora developed alot of talent here in New Orleans - That produced for other teams...

First, Second Rounders (with maybe, maybe the exception of quarterback) should be ready to play Week 1 - that's why you select them that high...

You take "projects" with later round picks...

Re: 2015 draft??
 

That's why he is going to be selected in the 3rd round... I agree with your assumption that 1st and 2nd round picks should be contributing to the team day 1.

Re: 2015 draft??
 

Has yet to be seen, we will know after this year... If he comes out and beats Browner for the #2 corner spot then I guess a "project" in the second round was a smart idea

Re: 2015 draft??
 

You don't actually think SJB could beat out Browner in training camp do you?? I mean, you're just throwing that out there for sake of debate right?

Re: 2015 draft??
 

Not being rude, but how would you know if he could or could not?

Re: 2015 draft??
 

I don't know. Anything's possible. I wasn't trying to be rude either... I guess it did kinda come acrossed that way. I just look at Browner as a guy who's been a part of two elite Super Bowl winning secondaries these past two years. Even if he did benefit from the players around him he'll be in the same boat this year with guys like Lewis and Byrd helping to make his job easier.

Re: 2015 draft??
 

I'm one of those who doesn't really care who starts; whatever makes the team better...

A secondary who can press every receiver out of their shoes at the line :bng:

Re: 2015 draft??
 

Not really Mitch because a second round player should be playing his first season...

Second, he did nothing to show he can play and we're forced to commit limited cap space to a free agent cornerback when it could have been allocated to another position of need...

So I don't think it was smart drafting a "project" cornerback in the second round that we needed to play last season...

Do I want the guy to rebound, progress? Of course I do...

But, the fact that he made a very limited number of appearances and we signed a FA CB, tells me a huge mistake was made drafting a project in the second round...

First and Second round picks should be ready to start or play significant time their first season...

Re: 2015 draft??
 

I look at Browner this way: He's spent the last two years as the #2 CB on teams with great #1 CB's and elite FS's... Now he comes to a New Orleans team with a similar set-up. If SJB beats him out then it's time to hang the cleats up.

Re: 2015 draft??
 

Agreed I'm also at the point already where I think this was colossal mistake. Something isn't clicking with SJB. Anytime a 2nd round selection doesn't play or was not active for the last game (Tampa), and UDFA get playing time over him ... we have issues.

Re: 2015 draft??
 

Can't figure it...

Most scouts are projecting Beasley a top five pick...

McShay, Scouts Inc got him around twenty...

But they think Gurley is a top 10 pick?!?

Can't wait to see what shakes out on Thursday...