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-   -   2017 New Orleans Saints Training Camp (https://blackandgold.com/saints/83548-2017-new-orleans-saints-training-camp.html)

spkb25 08-12-2017 04:53 AM
Re: 2017 New Orleans Saints Training Camp
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dizzle88 (Post 758640)
Yeah I saw it, didn't really know what to think but I'll never trust Payton when it comes to injuries.
Oh God of course not. He just says nothing lol

halloween 65 08-12-2017 06:15 AM
Re: 2017 New Orleans Saints Training Camp
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Utah_Saint (Post 758624)
Well, the Bills are going on 17 years, the Browns are going on 14 years, the Rams are going on 12 years, the Jags and the Bucs are going on 9 years, Titans are going on 8 years...
True, but we have had Brees and a top 5 O for years. Titans being the lowest on your list with 8 years, my question would be how long does it take to build 1/2 of a team with that 1/2 being a D.

SaintFanInATLHELL 08-12-2017 07:38 AM
Re: 2017 New Orleans Saints Training Camp
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Utah_Saint (Post 758634)
I didn't advocate for anything. You asked how long rebuilding takes and I listed the some of the current playoff droughts.

But since you asked...In my mind, hiring a new head coach in the NFL is a hit or miss thing, and it seems to me, it misses more often than not. How many seasons do you give a new coach to turn things around? Two, three years? And if that coach doesn't work, how many years do you give the next guy? I'm more confident in Payton than I am in an unknown.

We've talked about it on here dozens of times this offseason how close some of those games were last year. 3 busted special teams plays from being 10-6 instead of 7-9. I don't know how long I'll be happy with losing seasons but the team is still competitive so I'm happy for now. Who knows though, if the Saints go 4-12 this season, losing by 20 every game or if it seems he's lost control of the team, I'll probably be on the "fire Payton" bandwagon, but for now, I'm not there yet.
Right on the mark Utah. Another missed point: if Payton and Loomis are put out of the organization, then Brees will simply leave. And I can guarantee with some of the worst NFL defenses in history over the last 3 years, that the organization will be nowhere near 7-9 or competitive for quite a while.

We have a track record with Payton defenses. A squad that is relatively healthy, limits the run, and takes the ball away is enough to make this organization a championship contender.

Payton, Brees, Loomis, Carmichael, and to some degree Allen brought us a championship. There is a workable formula. As Utah pointed out that even with some limitation, the team last year was 2-3 plays away from double digit wins and a playoff bearth.

Honestly, I worry about defensive backs now. They seem to be dropping like flies. I don't know if Breaux will ever be healthy. Will Lattimore be prepared to play this season? Can the defense be effective if Williams and Crawley end up being the primary starting corners? All I know is that after last year and what I've seen in training camp so far that each and every guy in the DB group from 1-6 had better be prepared to be thrust into the action without much dropoff at a moment's notice. Any DB that isn't prepared for that needs to be released.

SFIAH

dizzle88 08-12-2017 07:45 AM
Re: 2017 New Orleans Saints Training Camp
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL (Post 758646)
Right on the mark Utah. Another missed point: if Payton and Loomis are put out of the organization, then Brees will simply leave. And I can guarantee with some of the worst NFL defenses in history over the last 3 years, that the organization will be nowhere near 7-9 or competitive for quite a while.

We have a track record with Payton defenses. A squad that is relatively healthy, limits the run, and takes the ball away is enough to make this organization a championship contender.

Payton, Brees, Loomis, Carmichael, and to some degree Allen brought us a championship. There is a workable formula. As Utah pointed out that even with some limitation, the team last year was 2-3 plays away from double digit wins and a playoff bearth.

Honestly, I worry about defensive backs now. They seem to be dropping like flies. I don't know if Breaux will ever be healthy. Will Lattimore be prepared to play this season? Can the defense be effective if Williams and Crawley end up being the primary starting corners? All I know is that after last year and what I've seen in training camp so far that each and every guy in the DB group from 1-6 had better be prepared to be thrust into the action without much dropoff at a moment's notice. Any DB that isn't prepared for that needs to be released.

SFIAH
That formula was used 8 years ago now and Payton has not been able to replicate it since.

2013 was a good D, but that's because they were fundamentally sound up front and got to the QB. They didn't get many takeaways.

I understand when you say this team was a handful of plays away from a playoff berth, but honestly....isn't that the same excuse we have heard for the past 3-4 years?? It sounds very familiar.

The disappointing truth is, in crunch time, this team has proven it will faulter, and then say a few days later "if only this play, if only that play."

SaintFanInATLHELL 08-12-2017 08:11 AM
Re: 2017 New Orleans Saints Training Camp
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by halloween 65 (Post 758643)
True, but we have had Brees and a top 5 O for years. Titans being the lowest on your list with 8 years, my question would be how long does it take to build 1/2 of a team with that 1/2 being a D.
Question: Over the last three years, what percentage of Saints games have started and ended with the listed #1 and #2 DBs on the roster playing the entire game?

You can't build any part of an organization without your expected personnel. I already see the rumblings of that this year.

Under the right circumstances the turnaround can be virtually instantaneous. See the transformation from 2012 to 2013. But it works in both directions. See 2013 to 2014 as an example.

A defense is a blend of scheme, coaching, personnel talent, and health. A good mix of all 4 leads to success. Any single one significantly missing leads to disaster. I'm pretty confident about 2 of the 4: coaching and talent. I'm still trying to understand Allen's scheme and how it's supposed to impact the rhythm of the opposing offenses. And health. That's the joker.

SFIAH

jeanpierre 08-12-2017 08:30 AM
Re: 2017 New Orleans Saints Training Camp
 

ChrisXVI 08-12-2017 09:06 AM
Re: 2017 New Orleans Saints Training Camp
 
Lattimore is out there at practice and observing so I'm inclined to believe they aren't hiding the severity of his injury.

jeanpierre 08-12-2017 09:18 AM
Re: 2017 New Orleans Saints Training Camp
 
Merde! C'mon, Lasco!

jeanpierre 08-12-2017 09:20 AM
Re: 2017 New Orleans Saints Training Camp
 
Wow, okay, the more hats to justify a roster spot, the better...

jeanpierre 08-12-2017 09:22 AM
Re: 2017 New Orleans Saints Training Camp
 

dizzle88 08-12-2017 10:12 AM
Re: 2017 New Orleans Saints Training Camp
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisXVI (Post 758661)
Lattimore is out there at practice and observing so I'm inclined to believe they aren't hiding the severity of his injury.

https://twitter.com/jkatzenstein/sta...69622550708224
Unreal, I can't believe the bad luck we have with defensive injuries.

SaintFanInATLHELL 08-12-2017 10:25 AM
Re: 2017 New Orleans Saints Training Camp
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dizzle88 (Post 758647)
That formula was used 8 years ago now and Payton has not been able to replicate it since.
I agree with you on this. But since we have evidence that it worked once, that it could come together again.
Quote:
2013 was a good D, but that's because they were fundamentally sound up front and got to the QB. They didn't get many takeaways.
My point is that the combination of factors that I referenced in a previous post (coaching,scheme,talent, health) came together that season when it did not do so the season before, or the seasons after.

Quote:
I understand when you say this team was a handful of plays away from a playoff berth, but honestly....isn't that the same excuse we have heard for the past 3-4 years?? It sounds very familiar.
Of course it's familiar because this current iteration of the Saints under Payton are always at the cusp of having a special season if everything falls into place.
It happened in 2006. It happened in 2009 after to lackluster seasons. It happened in 2013. And despite the injury situation last year the defense made incremental improvement under Allen last season. In addition coaching changes with the D-line and LBs are showing promise.

Quote:
The disappointing truth is, in crunch time, this team has proven it will faulter, and then say a few days later "if only this play, if only that play."
So I presume that you believe that nothing has changed since last season that will change that? That none of the free agents, coaching changes, draft picks, or anything else that has happened since January is going to make this season any different?

The defense was better last year. It went from historically record breaking awful to injury riddled subpar. There's another year in Allen's system with better coaches, new talent, and more experience. And as I keep saying the defense only needs to be average and consistent in order for the team to get over the hump.

Will it be? I don't know yet. However if you really believe that none of the changes could possibly make a difference, I guess the season is lost before it has even started.

SFIAH

dizzle88 08-12-2017 10:31 AM
Re: 2017 New Orleans Saints Training Camp
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL (Post 758675)
I agree with you on this. But since we have evidence that it worked once, that it could come together again.


My point is that the combination of factors that I referenced in a previous post (coaching,scheme,talent, health) came together that season when it did not do so the season before, or the seasons after.



Of course it's familiar because this current iteration of the Saints under Payton are always at the cusp of having a special season if everything falls into place.
It happened in 2006. It happened in 2009 after to lackluster seasons. It happened in 2013. And despite the injury situation last year the defense made incremental improvement under Allen last season. In addition coaching changes with the D-line and LBs are showing promise.


So I presume that you believe that nothing has changed since last season that will change that? That none of the free agents, coaching changes, draft picks, or anything else that has happened since January is going to make this season any different?

The defense was better last year. It went from historically record breaking awful to injury riddled subpar. There's another year in Allen's system with better coaches, new talent, and more experience. And as I keep saying the defense only needs to be average and consistent in order for the team to get over the hump.

Will it be? I don't know yet. However if you really believe that none of the changes could possibly make a difference, I guess the season is lost before it has even started.

SFIAH
I'd like to believe things are different, I actually like the coaching changes Payton has made, I just wish we could keep defensive backs healthy for more than a week. That's not Paytons fault though, they are just all made of glass.

jeanpierre 08-12-2017 11:02 AM
Re: 2017 New Orleans Saints Training Camp
 
This defense willl get better, when you factor the new player additions, the coaching improvements, the only thing we will not have changed, which has changed quite regularly, is the defensive coordinator...

SaintFanInATLHELL 08-12-2017 11:18 AM
Re: 2017 New Orleans Saints Training Camp
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dizzle88 (Post 758676)
I'd like to believe things are different, I actually like the coaching changes Payton has made, I just wish we could keep defensive backs healthy for more than a week. That's not Paytons fault though, they are just all made of glass.
I'm also wondering if it's just paranoia on the part of the organization now. Considering that lingering issues only seem to get worse once the season starts that if there's even the slightest tweak you pull the player until they are completely healed?

I just wonder how many reps does Lattimore especially and Breaux too need in the preseason to be prepared to play come September or October? Or do you bring them along slowly and let Williams and Crawley carry the load at the beginning of the regular season?

What I do know from last season is that the Saints are going to need and use every defensive back, both corners and safeties, that end up on the final 53. If Lattimore is ready to play after the bye in October and is completely healthy at that point, then it'll be worth him sitting now. Because just like everyone else, he is going to be needed.

SFIAH

ChrisXVI 08-12-2017 12:09 PM
Re: 2017 New Orleans Saints Training Camp
 
Cam Jordan with the pick 6 in practice today on a Drew Brees pass batted down by Anzalone. I guess if our DB's can't do it we'll just have Jordan handle it lol.

spkb25 08-12-2017 12:19 PM
Re: 2017 New Orleans Saints Training Camp
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL (Post 758649)
Question: Over the last three years, what percentage of Saints games have started and ended with the listed #1 and #2 DBs on the roster playing the entire game?

You can't build any part of an organization without your expected personnel. I already see the rumblings of that this year.

Under the right circumstances the turnaround can be virtually instantaneous. See the transformation from 2012 to 2013. But it works in both directions. See 2013 to 2014 as an example.

A defense is a blend of scheme, coaching, personnel talent, and health. A good mix of all 4 leads to success. Any single one significantly missing leads to disaster. I'm pretty confident about 2 of the 4: coaching and talent. I'm still trying to understand Allen's scheme and how it's supposed to impact the rhythm of the opposing offenses. And health. That's the joker.

SFIAH
We throttled the Pats at home in 09 with Mike McKENZIE walking in off the street because 3/4 of our backend were injured. I am sorry but the excuses are just that anymore, excuses and wishful thinking

spkb25 08-12-2017 12:26 PM
Re: 2017 New Orleans Saints Training Camp
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dizzle88 (Post 758676)
I'd like to believe things are different, I actually like the coaching changes Payton has made, I just wish we could keep defensive backs healthy for more than a week. That's not Paytons fault though, they are just all made of glass.
Yeah,...why does everyone forget 2011? although we shat the bed in san fran for first 1/2 of the game that was the best team we have ever fielded. I think our d was ranked 20th that year and with that offense, wowsers. Just my opinion but not staying healthy in the back-end year after year starts to become epidemic, and the people picking the players have to be held accountable for that.

Like I have said many times on here, the losing needs to end now. If not SP needs to pound the pavement and patrol a different sideline. It is sad to see people satisfied with mediocrity.

This needs to be the year, playoffs or bust. I can't think of many coaches churning out 7-9 seasons over and over who keep their job. And that is the one ofther part of what you stated dizzle that was overlooked, not just do we have Brees we have the same coach. So while other teams have failed to make the playoffs they didn't sit idly by with the same coach failing year in and year out because a decade ago he produced a super bowl

Fingers crossed this is the year. We certainly have enough talent

spkb25 08-12-2017 12:28 PM
Re: 2017 New Orleans Saints Training Camp
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeanpierre (Post 758679)
This defense willl get better, when you factor the new player additions, the coaching improvements, the only thing we will not have changed, which has changed quite regularly, is the defensive coordinator...
I think they will too. BTW LOved what I saw out of Teo the other night. Hope he stays healthy because he looked sharp. We have more talent pretty much everywhere. Still worried about the dline, but Kika and Jordan might do enough. I agree they will be and that better get us to the playoffs.

spkb25 08-12-2017 12:31 PM
Re: 2017 New Orleans Saints Training Camp
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL (Post 758680)
I'm also wondering if it's just paranoia on the part of the organization now. Considering that lingering issues only seem to get worse once the season starts that if there's even the slightest tweak you pull the player until they are completely healed?
Well, long season so rather healthy than not. I think the d will be better, but what worries me is Breaux is like china in a bull shop. He is always breaking something lately. Point being it worries me about his health for the entire season.

I actually really like the play from KC and Harris. People can say what they want about Ken but at least he isn't getting blown around and people are running 10 yards free past him. At least he is always near the ball

K Major 08-12-2017 12:31 PM
Re: 2017 New Orleans Saints Training Camp
 
Vonn must have blown up Fleener in OTA's or something... I rarely here his name called. Is he even practicing?

spkb25 08-12-2017 12:32 PM
Re: 2017 New Orleans Saints Training Camp
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by K Major (Post 758693)
Vonn must have blown up Fleener in OTA's or something... I rarely here his name called. Is he even practicing?
fleecer or bell?

BTW I am really impressed with our second round pick williams. I really like him and what I saw against the browns

K Major 08-12-2017 12:35 PM
Re: 2017 New Orleans Saints Training Camp
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by spkb25 (Post 758692)
but what worries me is Breaux is like china in a bull shop. He is always breaking something lately. Point being it worries me about his health for the entire season.
Unfortunately for us, this is one player that we can't count on in 2017. Great story, rise from the CFL to the NFL etc but he can't help us from the sidelines.

I won't be surprised to hear of a veteran corner signing next week.

spkb25 08-12-2017 12:37 PM
Re: 2017 New Orleans Saints Training Camp
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by K Major (Post 758695)
Unfortunately for us, this is one player that we can't count on in 2017. Great story, rise from the CFL to the NFL etc but he can't help us from the sidelines.

I won't be surprised to hear of a veteran corner signing next week.
yep, unfortunately. Plus he is missing so much time that I think his play is actually suffering now

K Major 08-12-2017 12:38 PM
Re: 2017 New Orleans Saints Training Camp
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by spkb25 (Post 758694)
fleecer or bell?
Fleener. I've never hear of him making a catch or play at practice. I'll hear Hill or Houchatmacallit making a play but nothing from Fleener. Did he get a day off or is he injured?

spkb25 08-12-2017 12:40 PM
Re: 2017 New Orleans Saints Training Camp
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by K Major (Post 758698)
Fleener. I've never hear of him making a catch or play at practice. I'll hear Hill or Houchatmacallit making a play but nothing from Fleener. Did he get a day off or is he injured?
Yeah I think I heard his name like once. Agreed. Hope he is good for 60 catches this year and 700 yards. But truthfully with our wideouts and kamara...it actually might make him more open.

spkb25 08-12-2017 12:49 PM
Re: 2017 New Orleans Saints Training Camp
 
https://www.instagram.com/p/BXssbkPgRfC/

AsylumGuido 08-12-2017 01:49 PM
Re: 2017 New Orleans Saints Training Camp
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by spkb25 (Post 758702)
Peterson is going to be a beast.

K Major 08-12-2017 02:01 PM
Re: 2017 New Orleans Saints Training Camp
 
Deuce Windham @RevDeuceWindham
#Saints LB Mauti on Vitt vs Nolan "Coach Nolan just kinda knows where we (should) fit on the defense. He's a great teacher."
12:14 PM - Aug 12, 2017
1 1 Reply 8 8 Retweets 10 10 likes

K Major 08-12-2017 02:05 PM
Re: 2017 New Orleans Saints Training Camp
 
Maybe TG Jr is looking for some Stickem to put on that glove :p ?

http://prod.images.saints.clubs.nflc...960&height=720

K Major 08-12-2017 02:07 PM
Re: 2017 New Orleans Saints Training Camp
 
Hope to see Fuller in pre season game #2.

http://prod.images.saints.clubs.nflc...960&height=720

K Major 08-12-2017 02:10 PM
Re: 2017 New Orleans Saints Training Camp
 
"Just throw me the damn ball!" - Micheal Thomas.

Notice his perfect diamond technique (hand placement in catching the football)

http://prod.images.saints.clubs.nflc...960&height=720

spkb25 08-12-2017 02:11 PM
Re: 2017 New Orleans Saints Training Camp
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by K Major (Post 758710)
Maybe TG Jr is looking for some Stickem to put on that glove :p ?

http://prod.images.saints.clubs.nflc...960&height=720
one can only hope

spkb25 08-12-2017 02:12 PM
Re: 2017 New Orleans Saints Training Camp
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AsylumGuido (Post 758706)
Peterson is going to be a beast.
yeah he is a different 30+

|Mitch| 08-12-2017 03:09 PM
Re: 2017 New Orleans Saints Training Camp
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by spkb25 (Post 758702)
I could do that! ;)

I might end up going through them, but basically the same thing :rofl:

The Dude 08-12-2017 04:19 PM
Re: 2017 New Orleans Saints Training Camp
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by K Major (Post 758698)
Fleener. I've never hear of him making a catch or play at practice. I'll hear Hill or Houchatmacallit making a play but nothing from Fleener. Did he get a day off or is he injured?
Yea Von knocked the **** out of him and they have been really hush about it.

The Dude 08-12-2017 04:20 PM
Re: 2017 New Orleans Saints Training Camp
 
Speaking of Fuller, did he play Thurs night?

spkb25 08-12-2017 05:21 PM
Re: 2017 New Orleans Saints Training Camp
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by K Major (Post 758712)
"Just throw me the damn ball!" - Micheal Thomas.

Notice his perfect diamond technique (hand placement in catching the football)

http://prod.images.saints.clubs.nflc...960&height=720
and his ripped abs

hagan714 08-13-2017 07:16 AM
Re: 2017 New Orleans Saints Training Camp
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dude (Post 758730)
Speaking of Fuller, did he play Thurs night?
nope he was out with a injury. But
Fuller (undisclosed) returned to Saints' practice on Friday, Joel A. Erickson of The Advocate reports.
Fuller had been sidelined for nearly a week due to an undisclosed injury. Entering his fourth season, the 27-year-old is competing for snaps at receiver, as he currently sits fifth on the depth chart.
https://www.cbssports.com/fantasy/fo...s-to-practice/

ChrisXVI 08-13-2017 09:45 AM
Re: 2017 New Orleans Saints Training Camp
 
Marshon Lattimore is alive and well!


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