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Saints Offer J. Brown for #2 update on pg 19!!!

this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; Originally Posted by FrenzyFan Almost everything you assume will be a positive for our defense is a possibility, not a certainty. All of your assertions display a lot of optimism, which is great. They are by no means a done ...

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Old 04-18-2008, 08:25 AM   #1
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Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2!!!

Originally Posted by FrenzyFan View Post
Almost everything you assume will be a positive for our defense is a possibility, not a certainty. All of your assertions display a lot of optimism, which is great. They are by no means a done deal.

McKenzie may defy the odds and be ready at the beginning of the season, but that would be well outside the norm for his injury. Recovery is typically right around 12 months and he tore his ACL on Dec 23. If he's ready by the season opener, that would be 8 months from the injury (not the surgery since I don't know exactly when he had it) - optimistic I would say.

Gay is absolutely a system CB. He's played more man-to-man than Jason David, but he's not even a starter for the Patriots. For the record, he was an undrafted FA. He started part of one year (2004) due to injuries to both starting corners. He was out parts of both 2005 and 2006 with injuries (placed on IR). He played in 2007, mostly as a nickel back and backup safety. I like the signing but I'm realistic about his abilities.

Usama might be the next shutdown corner, but so far we haven't seen it and thus it's just as possible he could be the next Jason David. Vilma may be everything he used to be, I hope he is but until he shows something on the field it's all "maybe". Dan Morgan might be healthy, might start, and might stay healthy.

Since you didn't talk about any of the others, I'll assume you agree with all the rest. Without the very rosy optimism, that still leaves a lot of question about almost every spot on our defense. The only area on our D I am comfortable with is DE. DT is a weakness, but not even in the same arena as LB and CB.
I am also not 100% sold on the strength of our CB and LB situation. But there are two things that still make a possible trade to get Dorsey a HUGE upgrade for our defense. First off, you are not guaranteeing upgrades at all those positions by staying put. Again, you can draft 3 guys at each of those positions but outside of getting Rivers, you likely will not see any of the guys you draft make much of an impact. IMO there are no impact players at DT aside from Dorsey and Ellis. CBs, no matter how good, take time to develop especially in the type of defense that we play. So staying put you get an impact player in Rivers. Rivers versus Dorsey - who makes the rest of your defense better? As Euph stated and has been stated before, the things that an impact DT opens up for the rest of your defense is tremendous. Anyone who has ever played a lick on the defense of any level football team knows the value of having a DT ahead or beside you who must be often accounted for by two lineman each play. I hear the concerns about the money for a #2 instead of a #10, but this is team that is ready to win soon.
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Old 04-18-2008, 08:43 AM   #2
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Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2!!!

Originally Posted by BRSaintsFan View Post
I am also not 100% sold on the strength of our CB and LB situation. But there are two things that still make a possible trade to get Dorsey a HUGE upgrade for our defense. First off, you are not guaranteeing upgrades at all those positions by staying put. Again, you can draft 3 guys at each of those positions but outside of getting Rivers, you likely will not see any of the guys you draft make much of an impact. IMO there are no impact players at DT aside from Dorsey and Ellis. CBs, no matter how good, take time to develop especially in the type of defense that we play. So staying put you get an impact player in Rivers. Rivers versus Dorsey - who makes the rest of your defense better? As Euph stated and has been stated before, the things that an impact DT opens up for the rest of your defense is tremendous. Anyone who has ever played a lick on the defense of any level football team knows the value of having a DT ahead or beside you who must be often accounted for by two lineman each play. I hear the concerns about the money for a #2 instead of a #10, but this is team that is ready to win soon.

excellent post.. great points all the way around

on a side note.. i dont know why everyone is so concerned with our cap space.. we are about 30 million under the cap at the moment and will have plent of room to resign all of our big name FAs next year no matter who we pick this year
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Old 04-18-2008, 03:30 PM   #3
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Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2!!!

Originally Posted by BRSaintsFan View Post
I am also not 100% sold on the strength of our CB and LB situation. But there are two things that still make a possible trade to get Dorsey a HUGE upgrade for our defense. First off, you are not guaranteeing upgrades at all those positions by staying put. Again, you can draft 3 guys at each of those positions but outside of getting Rivers, you likely will not see any of the guys you draft make much of an impact. IMO there are no impact players at DT aside from Dorsey and Ellis. CBs, no matter how good, take time to develop especially in the type of defense that we play. So staying put you get an impact player in Rivers. Rivers versus Dorsey - who makes the rest of your defense better? As Euph stated and has been stated before, the things that an impact DT opens up for the rest of your defense is tremendous. Anyone who has ever played a lick on the defense of any level football team knows the value of having a DT ahead or beside you who must be often accounted for by two lineman each play. I hear the concerns about the money for a #2 instead of a #10, but this is team that is ready to win soon.
Good points, but I have to stand on the idea that I'm not comfortable giving up Rivers (assuming he would be our guy) and our second round pick in this draft, for Dorsey. The argument that you may not get an upgrade for this year applies to every singly draft pick, including the #1 over all. You can look at examples of this everywhere and at every position on the field. The NFL level game is nothing like the college game and therefore there are no guarantees.

It's all a bunch of what-ifs, and I recognize that. Still feel like our defense needs more urgent help at CB and at LB than at DT. I think Dorsey will be great, just not sure if his skills can compensate for all our weaknesses. It might be better idea to keep our two early picks and try to fill more holes.

I like a great DT but when I think of the keys to great defenses, I think of LBs. For every "Mean Joe" Green, you have Ham and Lambert. I couldn't remember the name of the NT during the dome patrol years (had to look it up - Jim Wilks), but I can tell you the names of all four LBs.

Just my two cents.

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Old 04-18-2008, 04:31 PM   #4
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Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2!!!

Originally Posted by FrenzyFan View Post
Good points, but I have to stand on the idea that I'm not comfortable giving up Rivers (assuming he would be our guy) and our second round pick in this draft, for Dorsey. The argument that you may not get an upgrade for this year applies to every singly draft pick, including the #1 over all. You can look at examples of this everywhere and at every position on the field. The NFL level game is nothing like the college game and therefore there are no guarantees.

It's all a bunch of what-ifs, and I recognize that. Still feel like our defense needs more urgent help at CB and at LB than at DT. I think Dorsey will be great, just not sure if his skills can compensate for all our weaknesses. It might be better idea to keep our two early picks and try to fill more holes.

I like a great DT but when I think of the keys to great defenses, I think of LBs. For every "Mean Joe" Green, you have Ham and Lambert. I couldn't remember the name of the NT during the dome patrol years (had to look it up - Jim Wilks), but I can tell you the names of all four LBs.

Just my two cents.
Fair points about the two picks. But my stance is that you have a surefire pick in Dorsey (I know some debate that, but I still hold firm). Again, Rivers is a great prospect (not as good as Willis last year), but Rivers weakness may be that he is more of a speed LB than a physical one and does not enjoy having to shed blockers to get to the ball. If we do not have anyone in the trenches that can free up Vilma and assuming Rivers, then you are in effect neutralizing those guys strengths and ability to get to the ball. I just do not believe that any of the DTs after Dorsey and Ellis can make that sort of an impact. You could argue that Rivers gives us an additional pass rush in a variety of blitz packages, but getting McCray allows us to potentially put together a pass rush line including McCray and Smith on the side and Grant and Dorsey on the inside. That would be a huge blessing for our secondary and you would still be able to get a speed LB in round 3 if perhaps Tavares Gooden falls, Highsmith (he plays faster than timed and is an excellent blitzer and pass rusher), Geno Hayes (known for making plays in the backfield), or Jordan Dizon (another strong blitzer). Outside of Gooden, I dont see the chances of any of those guys taking over at LB full time, but would be a good change of pace for Shanle on blitz situations. Im high on Hayes for that role because of his explosiveness and he is a solid coverage LB.
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