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Saints Offer J. Brown for #2 update on pg 19!!!

this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; Hey I must have watched that on tv. It must have been on nfl network or espn....

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Old 04-23-2008, 02:27 PM   #151
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Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2 or #3!!! update on p

Hey I must have watched that on tv. It must have been on nfl network or espn.
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Old 04-23-2008, 02:41 PM   #152
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Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2 or #3!!! update on p

Originally Posted by spkb25 View Post
no sir you are wrong, one player does not make a team. Moss did not do that by himself. If memory serves and I think it does the pats brought in 3 new wide outs last year, didn't they???
Without Tom Brady the Patriots are nothing Wes Welker was below average before Brady and Moss well we seen him with The Raiders this is like saying Jaime Martin could've guided us to the NFC Championship two years ago, Dorsey would make our Defense 100 times better therefore possibly a Superbowl visit.
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Old 04-23-2008, 02:43 PM   #153
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Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2 or #3!!! update on p

Originally Posted by spkb25 View Post
no sir you are wrong, one player does not make a team. Moss did not do that by himself. If memory serves and I think it does the pats brought in 3 new wide outs last year, didn't they???
Try not to jump to conclusions so quick chief. No, it takes more than 1 player to take a team to the Super Bowl. It takes a puzzle of players. And if you have that puzzle and most of the pieces figured out, then it can take only 1 piece to take a team to the Super Bowl. With Moss the Pats are a Super Bowl team. Without him, they are bounced from the playoffs.

Try to think about what a DT actually does for the defense. In addition to the obvious of making tackles, they occupy blockers. If a blocker can shed a DT and get the second line of the defense, then the best LB in the league will struggle to make a play. But if you have a player than can penetrate and occupy blockers, then your LBs are free to pursue the ball. If a DT can penetrate the line, QBs no longer have a pocket to throw out of. They are forced to roll out to one side and throw on the run. This decreases accuracy, helps the corners as they do not have to cover as long, blows offensive plays as the designed routes are now blown, and take away half of the field as even the best QBs do not throw the ball across their body often.

No one player can make the other 10 players around them better like an impact DT.
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Old 04-23-2008, 02:48 PM   #154
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Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2 or #3!!! update on p

Originally Posted by spkb25 View Post
I recently read an article on the teams that are doing the best actually trade down not up. That can probably be argued all day also. I think we should stay exactly where we are or trade down, not up. I see no advantage to selling this draft or some of next year for ONE player. Especially because Dorsey scares me in that I continue to hear he is undersized. A lot of players do well in college because lineman are smaller than they are in the nfl and because your other d line members may be that much more dominant over the other teams o-line. Dorsey may be very good in the nfl. He might not to and isn't young already undersized for a true dt. Can we afford 2? I say stay where we are and if anything move back.

Dude....think of the offensive linemen that have come out of the SEC....Kevin Mawae, Alan Faneca, Chris Samuels, Marcus McNeil, and so on. Hell....there's Williams from Vanderbilt this year! This arguement does not carry weight, especially when you take into account that Dorsey was double teamed the majority of the time. They won't be able to do that to him as much in the pros. Think of how much better that makes our defensive line.

Now....you claim that Dorsey is undersized, right? The average offensive lineman in the NFL is 6'4" & 300 lbs. Dorsey is 6'2" & 300 lbs. How is he undersized? Maybe if you wanted a nose tackle for a 3-4 defense, he would be undersized. But...not when you play a 4-3. Sorry...I for one, say go get him. He's the best defensive player in the draft....by far. Why not? One solid DT is better than a bunch of "maybe" players. Again...quality is better than quantity.

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Old 04-23-2008, 02:48 PM   #155
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Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2 or #3!!! update on p

Originally Posted by spkb25 View Post
Hey I must have watched that on tv. It must have been on nfl network or espn.
O ok. Sure teams like the Patriots and Cowboys have benefited from trading fown (but dont forget the impact of Free Agency on these teams), but it depends on what your team needs to step up to the next level. In som circumstances like the Patriots this year, they would probably benefit from trading back as they have no glaring needs worthy of making a pick in the top 10, so why not trade back and take some chances on some players. Acquire more picks and select several players with the hopes that 1 or 2 pan out. Or improve your depth. But for a team like the Saints, that have clearly defined needs, you have to at least consider making a play for any player anywhere in the draft that has the potential to address the weaknesses of a team.
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Old 04-23-2008, 02:52 PM   #156
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Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2 or #3!!! update on p

Originally Posted by gandhi1007 View Post
Dude....think of the offensive linemen that have come out of the SEC....Kevin Mawae, Alan Faneca, Chris Samuels, Marcus McNeil, and so on. Hell....there's Williams from Vanderbilt this year! This arguement does not carry weight, especially when you take into account that Dorsey was double teamed the majority of the time. They won't be able to do that to him as much in the pros. Think of how much better that makes our defensive line.

Now....you claim that Dorsey is undersized, right? The average offensive lineman in the NFL is 6'4" & 300 lbs. Dorsey is 6'2" & 300 lbs. How is he undersized? Maybe if you wanted a nose tackle for a 3-4 defense, he would be undersized. But...not when you play a 4-3. Sorry...I for one, say go get him. He's the best defensive player in the draft....by far. Why not? One solid DT is better than a bunch of "maybe" players. Again...quality is better than quantity.
Quality is better than quantity. Amen.

And again, teams have benefited from trading down but IMO no more than from trading up. Bill Walsh drafted HOFers and built a dynasty by trading up in the draft.
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Old 04-23-2008, 02:54 PM   #157
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Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2 or #3!!! update on p

well lets not argue about d-line, o-line importance. To me there is no more important a position on the field. I think the game is still won and loss there. I absolutely agree that there are players that help teams reach a level that without them they would not have reached. I reserve those generally for the QB spot. I am of course speaking about players like brees, brady, and manning to name some. I think those teams are in trouble without those players.

Mind you chief the pats with moss sb record 0-1, without 3-0.

My point is this, does a player like moss assist the pats, yes. Does it hurt if they lose him, yes. Does it make or break them completely, no.

Saunders from indy might have a little more impact than moss, when put in perspective to their teams. Neither though destroys the teams they play for the way said players above would.

I have no issue getting dorsey if we are not mortgaging our future. I think though to stay at 10 still gets you a player that can help you and if you are wrong does not destroy your team this year and next. That is what you could be risking by trying to move from 10-2 and if you are wrong.

Your team stinks
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Old 04-23-2008, 02:56 PM   #158
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Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2 or #3!!! update on p

Originally Posted by jeanpierre View Post
The logic is this: Dorsey has a significant, documented injury history with multiple problems; while most any player can be injured at any given time, Dorsey's injury history should give pause for concern.

Consider, you would be giving multiple picks up for a guy that has already missed playing time at the collegiate level.

While I appreciate Dorsey's Man-Up Effort to play hurt (probably why he was my favorite LSU player this past season), the fact is...

Once the Big Mo gets in the picture and the "man has made it", most pro players tend to go 'Roger Dorn'...

Money is spent, Picks are Gone, and you have a guy with a lot of potential eating at the buffet bar instead of terrorizing the opposition...

To respond to another inquiry...their is significant value this year in several rounds for DT...

The Saints can draft more than one DT which would give depth at a position that requires heavy rotation for the heavy guys...

The Packers employed this philosophy with great success this past season and it took them to the NFC title game...

I like Dorsey and I hope he has a great NFL career, but giving up picks for one player is a huge risk; as one blogger posted, to paraphrase, if the Saints are truly on the cusp and need depth to spell starters and get through a long season, you need younger players to energize the veteran's play and leadership...


1. Dorsey has NEVER missed a game in college due to injury...

2. If you think that Dorsey is going to go "Roger Dorn" then you dont know Glenn Dorsey..

3. The potential between Dorsey, Ellis, and the rest is huge.. there is no way you could make a case as to any of the other DTs..

4. Dorsey wouldnt be there to spell the starters.. he would be there to START.. bryan young would be the backup DT and thats where he should be... he doesnt have the ability to be a fulltime starter and its one of the reasons we are lacking in the middle...

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Old 04-23-2008, 02:58 PM   #159
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Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2 or #3!!! update on p

BRsaintsfan your last point was a good one, when speaking about how the pats have no glaring need and how that your draft strategy can adjust as a result.
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Old 04-23-2008, 03:00 PM   #160
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Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2 or #3!!! update on p

Originally Posted by BRSaintsFan View Post
Where is this article? If you are the Atlanta Falcons this year, and you do not have high if any expectations for your team this year. You are in rebuilding mode. Then, the best course of action is to trade down to acquire a multitude of picks and fill your team with young players while also not adding much in terms of salaries.

However, if you are a team with high expectations and primed to make a run into the playoffs and at the SuperBowl, then you make the big play acquisitions (Patriots and Randy Moss and Adalius Thomas). You do not trade down and add guys that will complete for playing time. You bring in the guys who are hands down upgrades over what you have at the position and can make the immediate impact to take your team over the top.

Dorsey is undersized if you are looking for a 320lbs anchor who does not so much generate a push as much as holds their ground. Dorsey is a disruptive player who penetrates the line and forces QBs to roll out of the pocket and RBs to make the first cuts before the line of scrimmage, both of which open up the rest of the defense to make plays. Also, one of his strengths is playing with great leverage and as we learned with the Jonathan Sullivan experiment, leverage can often be more important than sheer size. Also, granted the NFL trenches are much different than college trenches, but Dorsey played against top flight offensive lines and large offensive lines in the SEC throughout his career.

Dorsey and Ellis are players who may not put up flashy stats in terms of tackles, sacks, etc but they are the impact players that can singlehandedly elevate the play of the other 10 defensive players around them. One of those players can upgrade an entire defense (Albert Haynesworth). Rivers and McKelvin are top 10 talent (some will debate that) but they can not improve the rest of the defense in the same way that an impact DT can.
excellent post.. great points all around
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