Saints Offer J. Brown for #2 update on pg 19!!!

Euphoria · 04-22-2008, 10:42 AM

I am sorry but you want to put the best guys on the field always!!! Why would you want to start the 4-5 best guys in their position? Makes no sense. You win with the best, you win with attitude and desire and Dorsey had displayed this all his life.

Essentially you have to take the Fantasy Football approach. You draft the best player don't you? You don't settle for a bunch of 'ok' guys. You can only start so many players... Its like saying you'd pass on Payton Manning in order to have Trent Dilfer and Thomas Jones. I am taking Payton Manny sorry.

JKool · 04-22-2008, 11:39 AM

I'm all for improving our pass rush, and I can't help but agree with Euph and SFIAH that this is of greater importance than a CB. However, I am also in favor of improving our run defense. Of course, these stud DTs will help us, do both (improve pass rush and run defense). However, if we can get LB Rivers at 10, I don't see too much need to carry the cost of moving up to #2.

The addition of Vilma is great, but the addition of Rivers and Vilma will go a long way toward stopping the run - which has also been a consistent problem for our defense.

Tobias-Reiper · 04-22-2008, 12:09 PM

Originally Posted by Euphoria

More is not better. More picks don't equate into a championship team. Winning makes you a championship team. In order to do that you get impact players who can impact games. We have enough of average, or the R2-R4 players on this team, its time we find some players to make an impact. You don't settle for a bunch of average players... you need some but you need those winner/impact guys along with them. We are lacking in the impact department on D.

R2-R4 will get you 8-8 or 7-9.

…dude, you really have lost it. I’m not against giving up a 2nd if it lands Dorsey or Ellis, but to say that R2-R4 yields you 7-9 8-8, that is just wrong.
You are also assuming that Dorsey is going to face undersized O-linemen with poor technique every Sunday in the NFL.

I’d be ok if the Saints stood pat at #10 and picked Rivers then picked Laws/Connor/Mayo at #40.

papz · 04-22-2008, 12:21 PM

Sounds like he's suggesting a Ricky Williams type draft doesn't it? Unless it's a high one, the rest are pretty much irrelevant. Plenty of impact players can be had rounds 1-7... you just got to know how to pick them.

pakowitz · 04-22-2008, 12:23 PM

We expressed a little skepticism regarding the assertiong of Falcons G.M. Thomas Dimitroff that he is getting calls from teams who are interested in moving into the No. 3 spot in round one.

As it turns out, the Falcons have gotten calls. One of them came from the New Orleans Saints, who were linked last week to the St. Louis Rams at No. 2.

The Saints are believed to be hoping to move up in an effort to land LSU defensive tackle Glenn Dorsey. They currently hold the 10th overall pick in the draft.

As a practical matter, however, the Saints should refrain from actually pulling the trigger until the Falcons are on the clock with Dorsey on the board. Otherwise, the Saints would be risking that someone else will move ahead of them to get Dorsey first.

ProFootballTalk.com - SAINTS STILL LOOKING TO MOVE UP

Euphoria · 04-22-2008, 01:02 PM

Originally Posted by Tobias-Reiper

…dude, you really have lost it. I’m not against giving up a 2nd if it lands Dorsey or Ellis, but to say that R2-R4 yields you 7-9 8-8, that is just wrong.
You are also assuming that Dorsey is going to face undersized O-linemen with poor technique every Sunday in the NFL.

I’d be ok if the Saints stood pat at #10 and picked Rivers then picked Laws/Connor/Mayo at #40.

average players... average team will get you an average record. Nothing wrong about that statement. I can't see how poor players on a poor team is going to get you 16-0?

Also I am ok with hanging back at 10 but I don't see us getting a player who is going impact our d as much as Dorsey will. Thats why I say its actually better to move up and snag Dorsey addressing our our DL.

Euphoria · 04-22-2008, 01:03 PM

Originally Posted by papz

Sounds like he's suggesting a Ricky Williams type draft doesn't it? Unless it's a high one, the rest are pretty much irrelevant. Plenty of impact players can be had rounds 1-7... you just got to know how to pick them.

No what I am suggesting is getting Dorsey is worth giving up a 2nd round pick for.

FrenzyFan · 04-22-2008, 01:40 PM

Originally Posted by Euphoria

average players... average team will get you an average record. Nothing wrong about that statement. I can't see how poor players on a poor team is going to get you 16-0?

Also I am ok with hanging back at 10 but I don't see us getting a player who is going impact our d as much as Dorsey will. Thats why I say its actually better to move up and snag Dorsey addressing our our DL.

The reason you keep catching flack is that you equate R2-R4 players with being guaranteed average, non-impact players. History clearly disproves that statement, even with picks in rounds after 2-4. There are 6th and 7th round picks playing in the league right now who are outplaying their 1st round (even 1st pick overall) counterparts. A round 2 pick has a LOT of value, to the right team/scouting department/draft evaluator. I'm not talking about some chart that seeks to attach a number to a draft pick. I'm talking about a player.

You feel (very strongly) that Dorsey is a can't-miss player so it's worth giving up our second round pick for. Other people feel that when our round 2 pick comes up, there will still be impact players on the board. Our history of drafts with this coaching staff has been a 50/50 line. One year, we couldn't miss with our draft picks - the next they all seem to be struggling (and that's being kind in some cases). If this is the year where we are "on", and considering the many needs our defense has, it may be better to take two impact players than just Dorsey.

For my part, I'll be a little disappointed if we trade up - but at the same time I'll be excited to see what Dorsey can do. He was great in college, but I have to agree when it was pointed out that players in the NFL (and particularly NFL linemen) are not undersized, like they are in college. I'd be hopeful, but only time would tell if Dorsey can immediately handle the transition to an NFL level.

If we trade up and get Ellis, would you still consider it a bargain? After all, your whole argument says that we need DTs to provide pass rush and thereby give the illusion that our secondary is better than it is.

papz · 04-22-2008, 01:58 PM

Well done and great post.

Euphoria · 04-22-2008, 02:09 PM

I never said ""guaranteed"", I have agreed its a crap shoot in previous posts??? People just like stirring trouble up and not seeing the whole situation are what all was said.

In this draft a round 2-4 DT will not make a great as impact as Dorsey. Just don't see it... they don't compare to what Dorsey has accomplished. We have a lot of bodies on the roster and they aren't going anywhere. Hell draft another CB and he will look foolish with no pass rush. Its time to fix the realy problem and that is up front first and formost.

If you read the whole thread you'd see my take on the whole situation. I want the guy who decided to stay in college and compete for a Nation Championship. He set his goals which seemed nearly impossible playing in the tough SEC and he accomplish just that. His decision making, his heart, his attitude makes this guy a winner! I want a winner first and formost.

Right now is the time to focus on getting him if he is the guy. Dolphins have committed now we need to see how far we can move up, and at what price. Ellis is irrelevant right now because Dorsey is the guy! I think many will agree you don't move up to #2 to get Ellis you take Dorsy. In a way the Saints were showing their hand and thats pretty ballsy, I like that. Its the same committment Dorsey showed to football and LSU.

Until things change Dorsey is my guy. I can't say what I want the Saints to do with the 10th pick because who the hell is going to be there??? Its anyones guess. But I do know who is on the board with the #2 pick

04-22-2008, 10:42 AM	#121
Euphoria 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Hollywood, CA Posts: 7,601 Blog Entries: 5	Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2!!! I am sorry but you want to put the best guys on the field always!!! Why would you want to start the 4-5 best guys in their position? Makes no sense. You win with the best, you win with attitude and desire and Dorsey had displayed this all his life. Essentially you have to take the Fantasy Football approach. You draft the best player don't you? You don't settle for a bunch of 'ok' guys. You can only start so many players... Its like saying you'd pass on Payton Manning in order to have Trent Dilfer and Thomas Jones. I am taking Payton Manny sorry.
	E U P H O R I A Last edited by Euphoria; 04-22-2008 at 10:48 AM..

04-22-2008, 11:39 AM	#122
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2!!! I'm all for improving our pass rush, and I can't help but agree with Euph and SFIAH that this is of greater importance than a CB. However, I am also in favor of improving our run defense. Of course, these stud DTs will help us, do both (improve pass rush and run defense). However, if we can get LB Rivers at 10, I don't see too much need to carry the cost of moving up to #2. The addition of Vilma is great, but the addition of Rivers and Vilma will go a long way toward stopping the run - which has also been a consistent problem for our defense.
	"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks

04-22-2008, 12:09 PM	#123
Tobias-Reiper Merces Letifer Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 4,161	Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2!!! Originally Posted by Euphoria More is not better. More picks don't equate into a championship team. Winning makes you a championship team. In order to do that you get impact players who can impact games. We have enough of average, or the R2-R4 players on this team, its time we find some players to make an impact. You don't settle for a bunch of average players... you need some but you need those winner/impact guys along with them. We are lacking in the impact department on D. R2-R4 will get you 8-8 or 7-9. …dude, you really have lost it. I’m not against giving up a 2nd if it lands Dorsey or Ellis, but to say that R2-R4 yields you 7-9 8-8, that is just wrong. You are also assuming that Dorsey is going to face undersized O-linemen with poor technique every Sunday in the NFL. I’d be ok if the Saints stood pat at #10 and picked Rivers then picked Laws/Connor/Mayo at #40.

04-22-2008, 12:21 PM	#124
papz Problem? Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: New Orleans Posts: 11,737	Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2!!! Sounds like he's suggesting a Ricky Williams type draft doesn't it? Unless it's a high one, the rest are pretty much irrelevant. Plenty of impact players can be had rounds 1-7... you just got to know how to pick them.

04-22-2008, 12:23 PM	#125
pakowitz The Dark Overlord Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: dirty south Posts: 3,450	Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2!!! We expressed a little skepticism regarding the assertiong of Falcons G.M. Thomas Dimitroff that he is getting calls from teams who are interested in moving into the No. 3 spot in round one. As it turns out, the Falcons have gotten calls. One of them came from the New Orleans Saints, who were linked last week to the St. Louis Rams at No. 2. The Saints are believed to be hoping to move up in an effort to land LSU defensive tackle Glenn Dorsey. They currently hold the 10th overall pick in the draft. As a practical matter, however, the Saints should refrain from actually pulling the trigger until the Falcons are on the clock with Dorsey on the board. Otherwise, the Saints would be risking that someone else will move ahead of them to get Dorsey first. ProFootballTalk.com - SAINTS STILL LOOKING TO MOVE UP
	Last edited by pakowitz; 04-22-2008 at 12:26 PM..

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04-22-2008, 01:02 PM	#126
Euphoria 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Hollywood, CA Posts: 7,601 Blog Entries: 5	Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2!!! Originally Posted by Tobias-Reiper …dude, you really have lost it. I’m not against giving up a 2nd if it lands Dorsey or Ellis, but to say that R2-R4 yields you 7-9 8-8, that is just wrong. You are also assuming that Dorsey is going to face undersized O-linemen with poor technique every Sunday in the NFL. I’d be ok if the Saints stood pat at #10 and picked Rivers then picked Laws/Connor/Mayo at #40. average players... average team will get you an average record. Nothing wrong about that statement. I can't see how poor players on a poor team is going to get you 16-0? Also I am ok with hanging back at 10 but I don't see us getting a player who is going impact our d as much as Dorsey will. Thats why I say its actually better to move up and snag Dorsey addressing our our DL.
	Last edited by Euphoria; 04-22-2008 at 01:06 PM..

04-22-2008, 01:03 PM	#127
Euphoria 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Hollywood, CA Posts: 7,601 Blog Entries: 5	Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2!!! Originally Posted by papz Sounds like he's suggesting a Ricky Williams type draft doesn't it? Unless it's a high one, the rest are pretty much irrelevant. Plenty of impact players can be had rounds 1-7... you just got to know how to pick them. No what I am suggesting is getting Dorsey is worth giving up a 2nd round pick for.

04-22-2008, 01:40 PM	#128
FrenzyFan 100th Post Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 406	Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2!!! Originally Posted by Euphoria average players... average team will get you an average record. Nothing wrong about that statement. I can't see how poor players on a poor team is going to get you 16-0? Also I am ok with hanging back at 10 but I don't see us getting a player who is going impact our d as much as Dorsey will. Thats why I say its actually better to move up and snag Dorsey addressing our our DL. The reason you keep catching flack is that you equate R2-R4 players with being guaranteed average, non-impact players. History clearly disproves that statement, even with picks in rounds after 2-4. There are 6th and 7th round picks playing in the league right now who are outplaying their 1st round (even 1st pick overall) counterparts. A round 2 pick has a LOT of value, to the right team/scouting department/draft evaluator. I'm not talking about some chart that seeks to attach a number to a draft pick. I'm talking about a player. You feel (very strongly) that Dorsey is a can't-miss player so it's worth giving up our second round pick for. Other people feel that when our round 2 pick comes up, there will still be impact players on the board. Our history of drafts with this coaching staff has been a 50/50 line. One year, we couldn't miss with our draft picks - the next they all seem to be struggling (and that's being kind in some cases). If this is the year where we are "on", and considering the many needs our defense has, it may be better to take two impact players than just Dorsey. For my part, I'll be a little disappointed if we trade up - but at the same time I'll be excited to see what Dorsey can do. He was great in college, but I have to agree when it was pointed out that players in the NFL (and particularly NFL linemen) are not undersized, like they are in college. I'd be hopeful, but only time would tell if Dorsey can immediately handle the transition to an NFL level. If we trade up and get Ellis, would you still consider it a bargain? After all, your whole argument says that we need DTs to provide pass rush and thereby give the illusion that our secondary is better than it is.
FrenzyFan 100th Post Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 406	\"The AB brand of TP will hurt your O-ring.\" - BlackandBlue http://www.darrylbercegeay.com/wsmith1.jpg

04-22-2008, 01:58 PM	#129
papz Problem? Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: New Orleans Posts: 11,737	Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2 or #3!!! update on p Well done and great post.

04-22-2008, 02:09 PM	#130
Euphoria 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Hollywood, CA Posts: 7,601 Blog Entries: 5	Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2 or #3!!! update on p I never said ""guaranteed"", I have agreed its a crap shoot in previous posts??? People just like stirring trouble up and not seeing the whole situation are what all was said. In this draft a round 2-4 DT will not make a great as impact as Dorsey. Just don't see it... they don't compare to what Dorsey has accomplished. We have a lot of bodies on the roster and they aren't going anywhere. Hell draft another CB and he will look foolish with no pass rush. Its time to fix the realy problem and that is up front first and formost. If you read the whole thread you'd see my take on the whole situation. I want the guy who decided to stay in college and compete for a Nation Championship. He set his goals which seemed nearly impossible playing in the tough SEC and he accomplish just that. His decision making, his heart, his attitude makes this guy a winner! I want a winner first and formost. Right now is the time to focus on getting him if he is the guy. Dolphins have committed now we need to see how far we can move up, and at what price. Ellis is irrelevant right now because Dorsey is the guy! I think many will agree you don't move up to #2 to get Ellis you take Dorsy. In a way the Saints were showing their hand and thats pretty ballsy, I like that. Its the same committment Dorsey showed to football and LSU. Until things change Dorsey is my guy. I can't say what I want the Saints to do with the 10th pick because who the hell is going to be there??? Its anyones guess. But I do know who is on the board with the #2 pick
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