Saints Offer J. Brown for #2 update on pg 19!!!

BRSaintsFan · 04-22-2008, 10:50 PM

Originally Posted by jeanpierre

What 18 guys would you consider quality starters?!? I see maybe half that number...

The argument is still made that their is significant talent in all rounds and it's putting together a total draft not just R1 picks that make a championship TEAM...

Pats, Giants, Colts, look at their drafts and it's not just R1 picks that made their teams...

And suppose, given his injury history, Dorsey goes down, who do you have to step up or pick up their game from their position?!?

(Added)

And in '03, didn't we move up to get "Can't Miss" Johnathan Sullivan when we could have had Troy Polamalu, Calvin Pace, Dallas Clark, Nnamdi Asomugha with later R1 picks?!?

Again, too many people want to put Dorsey in a Wedding Dress (Rickey Williams Syndrome)

If Dorsey goes down, you have the same DTs from last season. If you wait and draft a DT in the 2nd round and they go down, you have the same DTs from last season. Your point??

And who ever labeled Jonathan Sullivan as a cant miss prospect. Few people even had him ranked in the top 5 DTs coming out that year (Robertson, Jimmy Kennedy, William Joseph, Kevin Williams, Ty Warren)

And what sort of football sense are you using to equate Dorsey to Sullivan?

Dorsey - Strong, powerful, plays with good leverage
Sullivan - Despite his size, plays too high and without proper leverage

Dorsey - Hard worker, extremely active, non stop motor
Sullivan - History of being labeled as lazy and takes plays off

Dorsey - Agile and changes direction quickly
Sullivan - HAHAHAHAHA

Dorsey - Very experienced, 4 years as a regular sub or starter
Sullivan - 1 year wonder

SaintFanInATLHELL · 04-23-2008, 06:44 AM

JKool,

Good to hear from you. It's been a while.

Originally Posted by JKool

I'm all for improving our pass rush, and I can't help but agree with Euph and SFIAH that this is of greater importance than a CB. However, I am also in favor of improving our run defense. Of course, these stud DTs will help us, do both (improve pass rush and run defense). However, if we can get LB Rivers at 10, I don't see too much need to carry the cost of moving up to #2.

The run defense got better last year. But I think it came at the cost of committing safeties to the cause. Improving the LB corps will certainly help in the cause.

But the Saints biggest problem was the continue giving up of big plays over the top. And frankly it takes time for those plays to develop. It takes time in the pocket to do play action to bring up the safeties, and for receivers to do double moves.

Eliminate that time and those types of plays go way down.

The Saints defense in the middle was awfully weak last year. Personally I believe that if KK can get on the field it'll help in the defensive backfield in the middle, and the middle LB position is taken care of with Vilma. All that's left is that dynamic DT that pushes the pocket from the inside, demands double teams, and opens up the edge to our pass rushing ends that range from outstanding (Smith) to pretty good (Grant).

At the will, I can hope that Morgan recovers. I can live with Shanle. I can look to the future with Evans.

But the DT position is the missing piece to making the defense decent, if not dominant.

The addition of Vilma is great, but the addition of Rivers and Vilma will go a long way toward stopping the run - which has also been a consistent problem for our defense.

It was less consistent in 2007, moreso in 2006. Vilma is going to be a tackling machine in the middle. Fujita will no longer have to cover for 53 getting swallowed up. The safeties will be able to sit back more and actually cover on play action instead of biting at the first hint of a handoff.

The DT is the glue that ties it all together. Install Dorsey next to Hollis, with Young to rotate and install the 3 end package with Grant coming inside, along with Fijita, Vilma, and Morgan, and that's a defense we can depend on not to let the game slip away. Even with the CB corps we have now. Even with David. Dare I say it, even with Bullocks if we can teach him not to bite on run fakes.

It'll be a defense that will let Payton, Brees and the offense paint masterpieces with fearing that any mistake will cost the game.

It'll be worth it.

SFIAH

hagan714 · 04-23-2008, 07:34 AM

still trying to see hwo we are going to come up with 1300 pts. to make the trade work at #2. Atlanta I am kissing off. What player could we trading? Brown? Smith? Grant? I can not come up with many others worth the move.

jeanpierre · 04-23-2008, 08:18 AM

Originally Posted by BRSaintsFan

If Dorsey goes down, you have the same DTs from last season. If you wait and draft a DT in the 2nd round and they go down, you have the same DTs from last season. Your point??

And who ever labeled Jonathan Sullivan as a cant miss prospect. Few people even had him ranked in the top 5 DTs coming out that year (Robertson, Jimmy Kennedy, William Joseph, Kevin Williams, Ty Warren)

And what sort of football sense are you using to equate Dorsey to Sullivan?

Dorsey - Strong, powerful, plays with good leverage
Sullivan - Despite his size, plays too high and without proper leverage

Dorsey - Hard worker, extremely active, non stop motor
Sullivan - History of being labeled as lazy and takes plays off

Dorsey - Agile and changes direction quickly
Sullivan - HAHAHAHAHA

Dorsey - Very experienced, 4 years as a regular sub or starter
Sullivan - 1 year wonder

The logic is this: Dorsey has a significant, documented injury history with multiple problems; while most any player can be injured at any given time, Dorsey's injury history should give pause for concern.

Consider, you would be giving multiple picks up for a guy that has already missed playing time at the collegiate level.

While I appreciate Dorsey's Man-Up Effort to play hurt (probably why he was my favorite LSU player this past season), the fact is...

Once the Big Mo gets in the picture and the "man has made it", most pro players tend to go 'Roger Dorn'...

Money is spent, Picks are Gone, and you have a guy with a lot of potential eating at the buffet bar instead of terrorizing the opposition...

To respond to another inquiry...their is significant value this year in several rounds for DT...

The Saints can draft more than one DT which would give depth at a position that requires heavy rotation for the heavy guys...

The Packers employed this philosophy with great success this past season and it took them to the NFC title game...

I like Dorsey and I hope he has a great NFL career, but giving up picks for one player is a huge risk; as one blogger posted, to paraphrase, if the Saints are truly on the cusp and need depth to spell starters and get through a long season, you need younger players to energize the veteran's play and leadership...

BRSaintsFan · 04-23-2008, 09:17 AM

Originally Posted by jeanpierre

The logic is this: Dorsey has a significant, documented injury history with multiple problems; while most any player can be injured at any given time, Dorsey's injury history should give pause for concern.

Consider, you would be giving multiple picks up for a guy that has already missed playing time at the collegiate level.

While I appreciate Dorsey's Man-Up Effort to play hurt (probably why he was my favorite LSU player this past season), the fact is...

Once the Big Mo gets in the picture and the "man has made it", most pro players tend to go 'Roger Dorn'...

Money is spent, Picks are Gone, and you have a guy with a lot of potential eating at the buffet bar instead of terrorizing the opposition...

To respond to another inquiry...their is significant value this year in several rounds for DT...

The Saints can draft more than one DT which would give depth at a position that requires heavy rotation for the heavy guys...

The Packers employed this philosophy with great success this past season and it took them to the NFC title game...

I like Dorsey and I hope he has a great NFL career, but giving up picks for one player is a huge risk; as one blogger posted, to paraphrase, if the Saints are truly on the cusp and need depth to spell starters and get through a long season, you need younger players to energize the veteran's play and leadership...

Dorsey's injury history is poppycock. The injury history is inflated because the media must find a flaw in every prospect. The media is concerned about Dorsey's injury history, but all teams that interviewed Dorsey have checked out his health much more thoroughly than the media or you and I and have deemed him healthly without any concern. Otherwise, if his injury risk is as prominent as you seem to think, there would not be a need to trade up to 2 and get him as he would be tumbling down teams' draft boards and would fall in your lap at 10.

As for money getting to a DT and him letting go of his weight, someone like Jonathan Sullivan who was NEVER considered to have a great passion for the game, a high motor, and took plays off would be easily affected by a fat check. But if Dorsey is in that same character, then why in hell would he play hurt through the pain last season and risk further injury when he could very simply take the rest of the season off and still get paid. Because he has a high motor, great character, great leadership, and a love of the game.

The depth at DT after Ellis and Dorsey is questionable at best. In another draft, these two IMO would still be ahead of the rest, but guys like Balmer and Laws wouldnt even sniff the first day.

I will agree with you that Saints are on the cusp but more than just depth and a young influx of players is need to take them to that point. They need an impact player on the interior of the line - an IMPACT player, not someone who can spell Hollis Thomas from time to time. And by adding Dorsey, you do get a favorable rotation on the line (Dorsey, Thomas, Young, McCray, Grant, and Smith) that can be used in different situations.

spkb25 · 04-23-2008, 01:42 PM

I recently read an article on the teams that are doing the best actually trade down not up. That can probably be argued all day also. I think we should stay exactly where we are or trade down, not up. I see no advantage to selling this draft or some of next year for ONE player. Especially because Dorsey scares me in that I continue to hear he is undersized. A lot of players do well in college because lineman are smaller than they are in the nfl and because your other d line members may be that much more dominant over the other teams o-line. Dorsey may be very good in the nfl. He might not to and isn't young already undersized for a true dt. Can we afford 2? I say stay where we are and if anything move back.

BRSaintsFan · 04-23-2008, 02:02 PM

Where is this article? If you are the Atlanta Falcons this year, and you do not have high if any expectations for your team this year. You are in rebuilding mode. Then, the best course of action is to trade down to acquire a multitude of picks and fill your team with young players while also not adding much in terms of salaries.

However, if you are a team with high expectations and primed to make a run into the playoffs and at the SuperBowl, then you make the big play acquisitions (Patriots and Randy Moss and Adalius Thomas). You do not trade down and add guys that will complete for playing time. You bring in the guys who are hands down upgrades over what you have at the position and can make the immediate impact to take your team over the top.

Dorsey is undersized if you are looking for a 320lbs anchor who does not so much generate a push as much as holds their ground. Dorsey is a disruptive player who penetrates the line and forces QBs to roll out of the pocket and RBs to make the first cuts before the line of scrimmage, both of which open up the rest of the defense to make plays. Also, one of his strengths is playing with great leverage and as we learned with the Jonathan Sullivan experiment, leverage can often be more important than sheer size. Also, granted the NFL trenches are much different than college trenches, but Dorsey played against top flight offensive lines and large offensive lines in the SEC throughout his career.

Dorsey and Ellis are players who may not put up flashy stats in terms of tackles, sacks, etc but they are the impact players that can singlehandedly elevate the play of the other 10 defensive players around them. One of those players can upgrade an entire defense (Albert Haynesworth). Rivers and McKelvin are top 10 talent (some will debate that) but they can not improve the rest of the defense in the same way that an impact DT can.

spkb25 · 04-23-2008, 02:12 PM

The patriots, cowboys and colts are three teams they id'ed as using the moving back theory. I am not sure if it was on tv or if I read it. Let me look for it. Dude do yourself a favor, do not ever in any circumstance compare the best college teams to an nfl team. Dorsey will not come in and by himself make us a super bowl contender.

rjakapeanut · 04-23-2008, 02:15 PM

just like Randy Moss didn't come in and make the Patriots offense a million times better, right?

one player can change everything. see Colts defense with Bob Sanders, and Colts defense without Bob Sanders.

spkb25 · 04-23-2008, 02:19 PM

no sir you are wrong, one player does not make a team. Moss did not do that by himself. If memory serves and I think it does the pats brought in 3 new wide outs last year, didn't they???

04-22-2008, 10:50 PM	#141
BRSaintsFan 100th Post Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 449	Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2 or #3!!! update on p Originally Posted by jeanpierre What 18 guys would you consider quality starters?!? I see maybe half that number... The argument is still made that their is significant talent in all rounds and it's putting together a total draft not just R1 picks that make a championship TEAM... Pats, Giants, Colts, look at their drafts and it's not just R1 picks that made their teams... And suppose, given his injury history, Dorsey goes down, who do you have to step up or pick up their game from their position?!? (Added) And in '03, didn't we move up to get "Can't Miss" Johnathan Sullivan when we could have had Troy Polamalu, Calvin Pace, Dallas Clark, Nnamdi Asomugha with later R1 picks?!? Again, too many people want to put Dorsey in a Wedding Dress (Rickey Williams Syndrome) If Dorsey goes down, you have the same DTs from last season. If you wait and draft a DT in the 2nd round and they go down, you have the same DTs from last season. Your point?? And who ever labeled Jonathan Sullivan as a cant miss prospect. Few people even had him ranked in the top 5 DTs coming out that year (Robertson, Jimmy Kennedy, William Joseph, Kevin Williams, Ty Warren) And what sort of football sense are you using to equate Dorsey to Sullivan? Dorsey - Strong, powerful, plays with good leverage Sullivan - Despite his size, plays too high and without proper leverage Dorsey - Hard worker, extremely active, non stop motor Sullivan - History of being labeled as lazy and takes plays off Dorsey - Agile and changes direction quickly Sullivan - HAHAHAHAHA Dorsey - Very experienced, 4 years as a regular sub or starter Sullivan - 1 year wonder

04-23-2008, 06:44 AM	#142
SaintFanInATLHELL The Professor Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Lithonia, GA Posts: 2,773	Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2!!! JKool, Good to hear from you. It's been a while. Originally Posted by JKool I'm all for improving our pass rush, and I can't help but agree with Euph and SFIAH that this is of greater importance than a CB. However, I am also in favor of improving our run defense. Of course, these stud DTs will help us, do both (improve pass rush and run defense). However, if we can get LB Rivers at 10, I don't see too much need to carry the cost of moving up to #2. The run defense got better last year. But I think it came at the cost of committing safeties to the cause. Improving the LB corps will certainly help in the cause. But the Saints biggest problem was the continue giving up of big plays over the top. And frankly it takes time for those plays to develop. It takes time in the pocket to do play action to bring up the safeties, and for receivers to do double moves. Eliminate that time and those types of plays go way down. The Saints defense in the middle was awfully weak last year. Personally I believe that if KK can get on the field it'll help in the defensive backfield in the middle, and the middle LB position is taken care of with Vilma. All that's left is that dynamic DT that pushes the pocket from the inside, demands double teams, and opens up the edge to our pass rushing ends that range from outstanding (Smith) to pretty good (Grant). At the will, I can hope that Morgan recovers. I can live with Shanle. I can look to the future with Evans. But the DT position is the missing piece to making the defense decent, if not dominant. The addition of Vilma is great, but the addition of Rivers and Vilma will go a long way toward stopping the run - which has also been a consistent problem for our defense. It was less consistent in 2007, moreso in 2006. Vilma is going to be a tackling machine in the middle. Fujita will no longer have to cover for 53 getting swallowed up. The safeties will be able to sit back more and actually cover on play action instead of biting at the first hint of a handoff. The DT is the glue that ties it all together. Install Dorsey next to Hollis, with Young to rotate and install the 3 end package with Grant coming inside, along with Fijita, Vilma, and Morgan, and that's a defense we can depend on not to let the game slip away. Even with the CB corps we have now. Even with David. Dare I say it, even with Bullocks if we can teach him not to bite on run fakes. It'll be a defense that will let Payton, Brees and the offense paint masterpieces with fearing that any mistake will cost the game. It'll be worth it. SFIAH
	Super Bowl Championships: New Orleans Saints:1, Carolina:0, Atlanta Chokers: STILL ZERO Only Atlanta choked in an unchokable situation... Life is definitely good.

04-23-2008, 07:34 AM	#143
hagan714 LB Mentallity Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 15,870 Blog Entries: 68	Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2 or #3!!! update on p still trying to see hwo we are going to come up with 1300 pts. to make the trade work at #2. Atlanta I am kissing off. What player could we trading? Brown? Smith? Grant? I can not come up with many others worth the move.

04-23-2008, 08:18 AM	#144
jeanpierre Site Donor 2018 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Thibodaux Posts: 43,543 Blog Entries: 39	Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2 or #3!!! update on p Originally Posted by BRSaintsFan If Dorsey goes down, you have the same DTs from last season. If you wait and draft a DT in the 2nd round and they go down, you have the same DTs from last season. Your point?? And who ever labeled Jonathan Sullivan as a cant miss prospect. Few people even had him ranked in the top 5 DTs coming out that year (Robertson, Jimmy Kennedy, William Joseph, Kevin Williams, Ty Warren) And what sort of football sense are you using to equate Dorsey to Sullivan? Dorsey - Strong, powerful, plays with good leverage Sullivan - Despite his size, plays too high and without proper leverage Dorsey - Hard worker, extremely active, non stop motor Sullivan - History of being labeled as lazy and takes plays off Dorsey - Agile and changes direction quickly Sullivan - HAHAHAHAHA Dorsey - Very experienced, 4 years as a regular sub or starter Sullivan - 1 year wonder The logic is this: Dorsey has a significant, documented injury history with multiple problems; while most any player can be injured at any given time, Dorsey's injury history should give pause for concern. Consider, you would be giving multiple picks up for a guy that has already missed playing time at the collegiate level. While I appreciate Dorsey's Man-Up Effort to play hurt (probably why he was my favorite LSU player this past season), the fact is... Once the Big Mo gets in the picture and the "man has made it", most pro players tend to go 'Roger Dorn'... Money is spent, Picks are Gone, and you have a guy with a lot of potential eating at the buffet bar instead of terrorizing the opposition... To respond to another inquiry...their is significant value this year in several rounds for DT... The Saints can draft more than one DT which would give depth at a position that requires heavy rotation for the heavy guys... The Packers employed this philosophy with great success this past season and it took them to the NFC title game... I like Dorsey and I hope he has a great NFL career, but giving up picks for one player is a huge risk; as one blogger posted, to paraphrase, if the Saints are truly on the cusp and need depth to spell starters and get through a long season, you need younger players to energize the veteran's play and leadership...
	It's not that my way is the right way, I just make the right way my way...

04-23-2008, 09:17 AM	#145
BRSaintsFan 100th Post Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 449	Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2 or #3!!! update on p Originally Posted by jeanpierre The logic is this: Dorsey has a significant, documented injury history with multiple problems; while most any player can be injured at any given time, Dorsey's injury history should give pause for concern. Consider, you would be giving multiple picks up for a guy that has already missed playing time at the collegiate level. While I appreciate Dorsey's Man-Up Effort to play hurt (probably why he was my favorite LSU player this past season), the fact is... Once the Big Mo gets in the picture and the "man has made it", most pro players tend to go 'Roger Dorn'... Money is spent, Picks are Gone, and you have a guy with a lot of potential eating at the buffet bar instead of terrorizing the opposition... To respond to another inquiry...their is significant value this year in several rounds for DT... The Saints can draft more than one DT which would give depth at a position that requires heavy rotation for the heavy guys... The Packers employed this philosophy with great success this past season and it took them to the NFC title game... I like Dorsey and I hope he has a great NFL career, but giving up picks for one player is a huge risk; as one blogger posted, to paraphrase, if the Saints are truly on the cusp and need depth to spell starters and get through a long season, you need younger players to energize the veteran's play and leadership... Dorsey's injury history is poppycock. The injury history is inflated because the media must find a flaw in every prospect. The media is concerned about Dorsey's injury history, but all teams that interviewed Dorsey have checked out his health much more thoroughly than the media or you and I and have deemed him healthly without any concern. Otherwise, if his injury risk is as prominent as you seem to think, there would not be a need to trade up to 2 and get him as he would be tumbling down teams' draft boards and would fall in your lap at 10. As for money getting to a DT and him letting go of his weight, someone like Jonathan Sullivan who was NEVER considered to have a great passion for the game, a high motor, and took plays off would be easily affected by a fat check. But if Dorsey is in that same character, then why in hell would he play hurt through the pain last season and risk further injury when he could very simply take the rest of the season off and still get paid. Because he has a high motor, great character, great leadership, and a love of the game. The depth at DT after Ellis and Dorsey is questionable at best. In another draft, these two IMO would still be ahead of the rest, but guys like Balmer and Laws wouldnt even sniff the first day. I will agree with you that Saints are on the cusp but more than just depth and a young influx of players is need to take them to that point. They need an impact player on the interior of the line - an IMPACT player, not someone who can spell Hollis Thomas from time to time. And by adding Dorsey, you do get a favorable rotation on the line (Dorsey, Thomas, Young, McCray, Grant, and Smith) that can be used in different situations.

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04-23-2008, 01:42 PM	#146
spkb25 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Baltimore, MD Posts: 13,093	Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2 or #3!!! update on p I recently read an article on the teams that are doing the best actually trade down not up. That can probably be argued all day also. I think we should stay exactly where we are or trade down, not up. I see no advantage to selling this draft or some of next year for ONE player. Especially because Dorsey scares me in that I continue to hear he is undersized. A lot of players do well in college because lineman are smaller than they are in the nfl and because your other d line members may be that much more dominant over the other teams o-line. Dorsey may be very good in the nfl. He might not to and isn't young already undersized for a true dt. Can we afford 2? I say stay where we are and if anything move back.
	Your team stinks

04-23-2008, 02:02 PM	#147
BRSaintsFan 100th Post Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 449	Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2 or #3!!! update on p Where is this article? If you are the Atlanta Falcons this year, and you do not have high if any expectations for your team this year. You are in rebuilding mode. Then, the best course of action is to trade down to acquire a multitude of picks and fill your team with young players while also not adding much in terms of salaries. However, if you are a team with high expectations and primed to make a run into the playoffs and at the SuperBowl, then you make the big play acquisitions (Patriots and Randy Moss and Adalius Thomas). You do not trade down and add guys that will complete for playing time. You bring in the guys who are hands down upgrades over what you have at the position and can make the immediate impact to take your team over the top. Dorsey is undersized if you are looking for a 320lbs anchor who does not so much generate a push as much as holds their ground. Dorsey is a disruptive player who penetrates the line and forces QBs to roll out of the pocket and RBs to make the first cuts before the line of scrimmage, both of which open up the rest of the defense to make plays. Also, one of his strengths is playing with great leverage and as we learned with the Jonathan Sullivan experiment, leverage can often be more important than sheer size. Also, granted the NFL trenches are much different than college trenches, but Dorsey played against top flight offensive lines and large offensive lines in the SEC throughout his career. Dorsey and Ellis are players who may not put up flashy stats in terms of tackles, sacks, etc but they are the impact players that can singlehandedly elevate the play of the other 10 defensive players around them. One of those players can upgrade an entire defense (Albert Haynesworth). Rivers and McKelvin are top 10 talent (some will debate that) but they can not improve the rest of the defense in the same way that an impact DT can.

04-23-2008, 02:12 PM	#148
spkb25 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Baltimore, MD Posts: 13,093	Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2 or #3!!! update on p The patriots, cowboys and colts are three teams they id'ed as using the moving back theory. I am not sure if it was on tv or if I read it. Let me look for it. Dude do yourself a favor, do not ever in any circumstance compare the best college teams to an nfl team. Dorsey will not come in and by himself make us a super bowl contender.

04-23-2008, 02:15 PM	#149
rjakapeanut 100th Post Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 204	Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2 or #3!!! update on p just like Randy Moss didn't come in and make the Patriots offense a million times better, right? one player can change everything. see Colts defense with Bob Sanders, and Colts defense without Bob Sanders.
rjakapeanut 100th Post Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 204

04-23-2008, 02:19 PM	#150
spkb25 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Baltimore, MD Posts: 13,093	Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2 or #3!!! update on p no sir you are wrong, one player does not make a team. Moss did not do that by himself. If memory serves and I think it does the pats brought in 3 new wide outs last year, didn't they???