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Saints Offer J. Brown for #2 update on pg 19!!!

this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; I am just glad everyone here is not in the war room come Saturday. I think we would miss our pick....

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Old 04-22-2008, 03:31 PM   #131
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Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2 or #3!!! update on p

I am just glad everyone here is not in the war room come Saturday. I think we would miss our pick.
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Old 04-22-2008, 09:07 PM   #132
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Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2 or #3!!! update on p

Reading this R2-R4 picks argument have no impact players, mediocre records argument...

Well, isn't that special...sound like SATAN to me...

Let's look at some R3 picks in the about the last ten years, shall we...

Curtis Martin, RB, Boston (NE to the rest of you)
Tedy Bruschi, LB, NE
Ronde Barber, CB, Bucs
Mike Vrabel, LB, Steelers (now of NE)
Jason Taylor, DE, Dolphins
Hines Ward, WR, Steelers
Olin Kreutz, C, Baers
Joey Porter, LB, Steelers
Laveranues Coles, WR, JETS
Brian Westbrook, RB, Philly
Jason Witten, TE, Cowboys
Lance Briggs, LB, Baers
Kevin Curtis, WR, Rams
Ricky Manning, CB, Panthers
Angelo Crowell, LB, Bills (And Haslett picked Cie Grant earlier in R3, Swell)
Huggie Bear Fargas, RB, Raidars
Chris Simms, QB, Bucs
Matt Schaub, QB, Falcones (Brett Favre, Schaub, Gotta Love Those Falcon Choices on who to keep)
Chris Cooley, TE, Redskins
Bernard Berrian, WR, Baers
Frank Gore, RB, San Fran
Justin Tuck, DE, New York Giants
Ellis Hobs, DB, NE
Nick Kaczur, OL, NE
James Jones, WR Green Bay

Took about 5 minutes to cut/paste these guys while eating a piece of cake being forced-fed by my daughter, really...

And Joe Montana was a Round 3 pick...sooooo....

the R2-R4 picks argument has no impact players is pretty much right there with the Earth is Flat Theory...

And granted, though the Draft is somewhat a Roulette...

I like what Grant Hill said of the famous/infamous ending to the Duke/Kentucky elite 8 game, "Luck favors the Prepared Man"

Do your preparation...

Bet as many numbers as you can...

And the magic will happen...

90% of NFL front office jobs are for elite country club types who see less stress than a Cruise Director, but a select few take their jobs seriously, appreciate the game of football, and display a forthright work ethic that gets results...

Man, I miss Jim Finks...

As far as this On/Off year thing, the Saints need to gain picks as after their Off Year both at the draft and on the field, they better get it On are the fan base will turn, especially with only seven games at Da Dome this year...

It's not that my way is the right way, I just make the right way my way...
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Old 04-22-2008, 09:26 PM   #133
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Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2 or #3!!! update on p

Originally Posted by jeanpierre View Post
Reading this R2-R4 picks argument have no impact players, mediocre records argument...

Well, isn't that special...sound like SATAN to me...

Let's look at some R3 picks in the about the last ten years, shall we...

Curtis Martin, RB, Boston (NE to the rest of you)
Tedy Bruschi, LB, NE
Ronde Barber, CB, Bucs
Mike Vrabel, LB, Steelers (now of NE)
Jason Taylor, DE, Dolphins
Hines Ward, WR, Steelers
Olin Kreutz, C, Baers
Joey Porter, LB, Steelers
Laveranues Coles, WR, JETS
Brian Westbrook, RB, Philly
Jason Witten, TE, Cowboys
Lance Briggs, LB, Baers
Kevin Curtis, WR, Rams
Ricky Manning, CB, Panthers
Angelo Crowell, LB, Bills (And Haslett picked Cie Grant earlier in R3, Swell)
Huggie Bear Fargas, RB, Raidars
Chris Simms, QB, Bucs
Matt Schaub, QB, Falcones (Brett Favre, Schaub, Gotta Love Those Falcon Choices on who to keep)
Chris Cooley, TE, Redskins
Bernard Berrian, WR, Baers
Frank Gore, RB, San Fran
Justin Tuck, DE, New York Giants
Ellis Hobs, DB, NE
Nick Kaczur, OL, NE
James Jones, WR Green Bay

Took about 5 minutes to cut/paste these guys while eating a piece of cake being forced-fed by my daughter, really...

And Joe Montana was a Round 3 pick...sooooo....

the R2-R4 picks argument has no impact players is pretty much right there with the Earth is Flat Theory...

And granted, though the Draft is somewhat a Roulette...

I like what Grant Hill said of the famous/infamous ending to the Duke/Kentucky elite 8 game, "Luck favors the Prepared Man"

Do your preparation...

Bet as many numbers as you can...

And the magic will happen...

90% of NFL front office jobs are for elite country club types who see less stress than a Cruise Director, but a select few take their jobs seriously, appreciate the game of football, and display a forthright work ethic that gets results...

Man, I miss Jim Finks...

As far as this On/Off year thing, the Saints need to gain picks as after their Off Year both at the draft and on the field, they better get it On are the fan base will turn, especially with only seven games at Da Dome this year...

Just for sh**s & giggles......how many of those great 3rd rounders were DT's?
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Old 04-22-2008, 10:10 PM   #134
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Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2 or #3!!! update on p

Well, one could argue their position is now due...I like Dre Moore (though he's expected to be a R2 pick), Ahtyba Rubin, Pat Sims, Marcus Harrison, Frank Okam...
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Old 04-22-2008, 10:35 PM   #135
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Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2 or #3!!! update on p

Originally Posted by jeanpierre View Post
Reading this R2-R4 picks argument have no impact players, mediocre records argument...

Well, isn't that special...sound like SATAN to me...

Let's look at some R3 picks in the about the last ten years, shall we...

Curtis Martin, RB, Boston (NE to the rest of you)
Tedy Bruschi, LB, NE
Ronde Barber, CB, Bucs
Mike Vrabel, LB, Steelers (now of NE)
Jason Taylor, DE, Dolphins
Hines Ward, WR, Steelers
Olin Kreutz, C, Baers
Joey Porter, LB, Steelers
Laveranues Coles, WR, JETS
Brian Westbrook, RB, Philly
Jason Witten, TE, Cowboys
Lance Briggs, LB, Baers
Kevin Curtis, WR, Rams
Ricky Manning, CB, Panthers
Angelo Crowell, LB, Bills (And Haslett picked Cie Grant earlier in R3, Swell)
Huggie Bear Fargas, RB, Raidars
Chris Simms, QB, Bucs
Matt Schaub, QB, Falcones (Brett Favre, Schaub, Gotta Love Those Falcon Choices on who to keep)
Chris Cooley, TE, Redskins
Bernard Berrian, WR, Baers
Frank Gore, RB, San Fran
Justin Tuck, DE, New York Giants
Ellis Hobs, DB, NE
Nick Kaczur, OL, NE
James Jones, WR Green Bay

Took about 5 minutes to cut/paste these guys while eating a piece of cake being forced-fed by my daughter, really...

And Joe Montana was a Round 3 pick...sooooo....

the R2-R4 picks argument has no impact players is pretty much right there with the Earth is Flat Theory...

And granted, though the Draft is somewhat a Roulette...

I like what Grant Hill said of the famous/infamous ending to the Duke/Kentucky elite 8 game, "Luck favors the Prepared Man"

Do your preparation...

Bet as many numbers as you can...

And the magic will happen...

90% of NFL front office jobs are for elite country club types who see less stress than a Cruise Director, but a select few take their jobs seriously, appreciate the game of football, and display a forthright work ethic that gets results...

Man, I miss Jim Finks...

As far as this On/Off year thing, the Saints need to gain picks as after their Off Year both at the draft and on the field, they better get it On are the fan base will turn, especially with only seven games at Da Dome this year...

Good find...but also keep in mind that you named 25 players from the past 10 years...assuming 32 picks (granted at times there were less teams and also there might be more than 32 due to comp picks) times 10 years is 320 3rd round picks...25/320= 7.8%. 7.8% times 32 picks in this years third round= 2.4. So theoretically, of all the picks in the third round, 2-3 of the players would be in the same status as the 25 guys you named. Again, value can be found all throughout the draft whether the value of the player is a franchise, all pro player, a quality starter, a career backup, or a special teams ace. Value is certainly available in the middle rounds but the chances of a guy turning into a quality starter isnt always so great.
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Old 04-22-2008, 10:42 PM   #136
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Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2 or #3!!! update on p

Looking at the 2005 draft (3 years is a good benchmark for the development of a player).

First Round
First round 1 San Francisco Alex Smith
QB
Utah

2 Miami Ronnie Brown
RB
Auburn

3 Cleveland Braylon Edwards
WR
Michigan

4 Chicago Cedric Benson
RB
Texas

5 Tampa Bay Carnell Williams
RB
Auburn

6 Tennessee Pacman Jones
CB
West Virginia

7 Minnesota (from Oakland) Troy Williamson
WR
South Carolina

8 Arizona Antrel Rolle
CB
Miami

9 Washington Carlos Rogers
CB
Auburn

10 Detroit Mike Williams
WR
Southern California

11 Dallas Demarcus Ware
LB
Troy State

12 San Diego (from NY Giants) Shawn Merriman
LB
Maryland

13 New Orleans (from Houston) Jammal Brown
OT
Oklahoma

14 Carolina Thomas Davis
SS
Georgia

15 Kansas City Derrick Johnson
LB
Texas

16 Houston (from New Orleans) Travis Johnson
DT
Florida State

17 Cincinnati David Pollack
DE
Georgia

18 Minnesota Erasmus James
DE
Wisconsin

19 St. Louis Alex Barron
OT
Florida State

20 Dallas (from Buffalo) Marcus Spears
DE
LSU

21 Jacksonville Matt Jones
WR
Arkansas

22 Baltimore Mark Clayton
WR
Oklahoma

23 Oakland (from Seattle) Fabian Washington
CB
Nebraska

24 Green Bay Aaron Rodgers
QB
California

25 Washington (from Denver) Jason Campbell
QB
Auburn

26 Seattle (from NY Jets thru Oakland) Chris Spencer
C
Mississippi

27 Atlanta Roddy White
WR
Alabama-Birmingham

28 San Diego Luis Castillo
DT
Northwestern

29 Indianapolis Marlin Jackson
CB
Michigan

30 Pittsburgh Heath Miller
TE
Virginia

31 Philadelphia Mike Patterson
DT
Southern California

32 New England Logan Mankins
OT
Fresno State

Of those guys, I glanced through and identified 18 guys give or take that can be considered quality starters in the league.

Third round 65 San Francisco Frank Gore
RB
Miami

66 St. Louis (from Miami) OJ Atogwe
FS
Stanford

67 Cleveland Charlie Frye
QB
Akron

68 Tennessee Courtney Roby
WR
Indiana

69 Oakland Andrew Walter
QB
Arizona State

70 Miami (from Chicago) Channing Crowder
LB
Florida

71 Tampa Bay Alex Smith
TE
Stanford

72 Detroit Stanley Wilson
CB
Stanford
73 Houston (from Dallas) Vernand Morency
RB
Oklahoma State

74 New York Giants Justin Tuck
DE Notre Dame
75 Arizona Eric Green
CB
Virginia Tech

76 Denver (from Washington) Karl Paymah
CB
Washington State

77 Philadelphia (from Kansas City) Ryan Moats
RB
Louisiana Tech

78 Oakland (from Houston) Kirk Morrison
LB
San Diego State

79 Carolina Ethan Mathis
OG
Alabama

80 Minnesota Dustin Fox
CB
Ohio State

81 St. Louis Richie Incognito
C
Nebraska

82 New Orleans Alfred Fincher
LB
UConn

83 Cincinnati Chris Henry
WR
West Virginia

84 New England (from Baltimore) Ellis Hobbs
CB
Iowa State

85 Seattle David Greene
QB
Georgia

86 Buffalo Kevin Everett
TE
Miami

87 Jacksonville Scott Starks
CB
Wisconsin

88 New York Jets Sione Pouha
DT
Utah

89 Carolina (from Green Bay) Atiyyah Ellison
DT
Missouri


Denver Forfeited pick


90 Atlanta Jordan Beck
LB
Cal-Poly

91 Tampa Bay (from San Diego) Chris Colmer
OT
North Carolina State

92 Indianapolis Vinnie Burns
DE
Kentucky

93 Pittsburgh Trai Essex
OT
Northwestern

94 San Francisco (from Philadelphia) Adam Snyder
OT
Oregon

95 Arizona (from New England) Darryl Blackstock
LB
Virginia

96(c)
Tennessee
Brandon Jones
WR
Oklahoma

97(c)
Denver
Domonique Foxworth
CB
North Carolina

98(c)
Seattle
Leroy Hill
LB
Clemson

99(c)
Kansas City
Dustin Colquitt
P
Tennessee

100(c)
New England
Nick Kaczur
OG
Toledo

101(c)
Denver
Maurice Clarett
RB
Ohio State

I glanced and counted 7 guys who I would consider quality starters.

Obviously, you are going to have a better chance of getting a quality starter in the first round than in the third. Just looking at this draft would you rather have a Ronnie Brown or Braylon Edwards (2 and 3) or Mike Williams and Josh Bullocks (ironic). Again, this is a vanilla way of looking at things but you have a much better chance of trading up and getting an impact player than the guys you will get staying put. There is certainly value in the middle rounds but as expected the prospect is much much more difficult to identify than in the first round.
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Old 04-22-2008, 11:05 PM   #137
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Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2 or #3!!! update on p

There is always value to be had 2 to 3. 4th has also given us some good players. This year 2 through 4 looks to be one of the best mix of players we have seen in a long time. If the price is to high because of the lack of elite players in the top 5. Then you have to say no. Chris Long and Dorsey is all that is left. The others do not belong as high as they are. Teams know this and will try to cash in.
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Old 04-22-2008, 11:19 PM   #138
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Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2 or #3!!! update on p

What 18 guys would you consider quality starters?!? I see maybe half that number...

The argument is still made that their is significant talent in all rounds and it's putting together a total draft not just R1 picks that make a championship TEAM...

Pats, Giants, Colts, look at their drafts and it's not just R1 picks that made their teams...

And suppose, given his injury history, Dorsey goes down, who do you have to step up or pick up their game from their position?!?

(Added)

And in '03, didn't we move up to get "Can't Miss" Johnathan Sullivan when we could have had Troy Polamalu, Calvin Pace, Dallas Clark, Nnamdi Asomugha with later R1 picks?!?

Again, too many people want to put Dorsey in a Wedding Dress (Rickey Williams Syndrome)

It's not that my way is the right way, I just make the right way my way...

Last edited by jeanpierre; 04-22-2008 at 11:23 PM..
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Old 04-22-2008, 11:33 PM   #139
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Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2 or #3!!! update on p

Originally Posted by jeanpierre View Post

And in '03, didn't we move up to get "Can't Miss" Johnathan Sullivan when we could have had Troy Polamalu, Calvin Pace, Dallas Clark, Nnamdi Asomugha with later R1 picks?!?

um no... we had relatively obscure johnathan sullivan.. he wasnt highly reguarded which is why everyone was scratching their heads when the saints traded up for him when he likely would have fallen to us at 16
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Old 04-22-2008, 11:36 PM   #140
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Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2 or #3!!! update on p

Originally Posted by jeanpierre View Post
What 18 guys would you consider quality starters?!? I see maybe half that number...

The argument is still made that their is significant talent in all rounds and it's putting together a total draft not just R1 picks that make a championship TEAM...

Pats, Giants, Colts, look at their drafts and it's not just R1 picks that made their teams...

And suppose, given his injury history, Dorsey goes down, who do you have to step up or pick up their game from their position?!?
1. Ronnie Brown
2. Braylon Edwards
3. Carlos Rogers
4. Demarcus Ware
5. Shawn Merriman
6. Jamaal Brown
7. Thomas Davis
8. Derrick Johnson
9. Travis Johnson
10. Mark Clayton
11. Fabian Washington
12. Jason CAmpbell
13. Chris Spencer
14. Luis Castillo
15. Marlin Jackson
16. Heath Miller
17. Logan Mankins

Miscounted by 1. Oops. 17 players.
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