Saints Offer J. Brown for #2 update on pg 19!!!

FrenzyFan · 04-17-2008, 03:52 PM

I'd be a lot happier about this deal if a dominant DT was the only thing we needed on defense. It makes sense to trade up to get the piece that will take you over the top. It will almost certainly cost us our second round pick to make the deal happen. What that says is, "I'm happy with what I have on defense."

The problem is that our defense needs lots of help, and FA is essentially over. The CB situation is the most terrifying. McKenzie had a terrific year last year but may not be back, or not be back to form. We acquired Gay, but he seems like a "system" CB (see Jason David). Usama Young is unproven, don't even talk to me about Jason David. Then there's Jason Craft.... Aaron Glenn....

Our LB corps is extremely lacking as well. Everyone wants to insert Vilma as a productive LB. Problem is he has NOT been that in several years and he's coming of the "mystery" injury. I have hope for Vilma. I know many of the experts say that his production dropped because the Jets went to the 3-4. Does this not make him a role player? I know we have the right role for him, but still this is enough to at least have some doubt that he is the answer to our LB problems. If he's not, it's Simoneau again.....

We acquired Dan Morgan, who could be good if he can get on the field and stay there. Even so, he was brought in to compete with Shanle for a starting spot. If Shanle is competition to you, I would not call you an even average LB.

I like Fujita, so I'll give him a pass. He wasn't the first choice as a starter on some of his prior teams - but's he's lightyears better than any else we have on our roster.

We could use some help in coverage at safety. We could use some consistent inside pass rush - and yes, I know this makes coverage look better when you have it. All the same, our defense has far too many problems for me to feel comfortable about "breaking the bank" to get one player - even if its a great one like Dorsey.

I could live with it, if it happened - but I'm just not certain it's the best move for the team.

Edited to add "NOT" to my point about Vilma above
- Frenzy

rjakapeanut · 04-17-2008, 04:01 PM

Our CB situation is fine for now. I disagree with you there. Big Mike is ahead of schedule and will start for us at CB. You saying that you think Gay is a "system CB" says to me that you have done no research on him at all. He has played Man Coverage before and will thrive in our system, even if he's only there as a Nickle corner.

Usama is young and unproven but that doesn't mean he won't step in and play well for us. It's not his fault he's unproven. Every player is unproven until they step up and win a starting job, which is exactly what I think he'll do this season.

Our LB corps seem strong IMO. We have Vilma starting at MLB and a great backup in Simoneau (who can play all LB positions). Dan Morgan can come back healthy and start for us, and if need be we'll insert Scott Shanle or a WLB Draft Pick in his place. SLB seems to be fine right now with Fujita filling that role nicely. Assuming injuries aren't a HUGE problem we'll be fine at LB.

I think Dorsey WOULD put us pretty much over the top.

Euphoria · 04-17-2008, 04:20 PM

Originally Posted by rjakapeanut

Our CB situation is fine for now. I disagree with you there. Big Mike is ahead of schedule and will start for us at CB. You saying that you think Gay is a "system CB" says to me that you have done no research on him at all. He has played Man Coverage before and will thrive in our system, even if he's only there as a Nickle corner.

Usama is young and unproven but that doesn't mean he won't step in and play well for us. It's not his fault he's unproven. Every player is unproven until they step up and win a starting job, which is exactly what I think he'll do this season.

Our LB corps seem strong IMO. We have Vilma starting at MLB and a great backup in Simoneau (who can play all LB positions). Dan Morgan can come back healthy and start for us, and if need be we'll insert Scott Shanle or a WLB Draft Pick in his place. SLB seems to be fine right now with Fujita filling that role nicely. Assuming injuries aren't a HUGE problem we'll be fine at LB.

I think Dorsey WOULD put us pretty much over the top.

I have to absolutely agree with you 100 percent here. What Dorsey will bring is youth, leadership, and domance on the DL. He will free LB's, Help the CB's maintaining man to man coverage by not giving the opposing teams all day to pass. The Safties can stand around all they want then hell they'll be able to blitz as well and get to the QB while Dorsey takes on 2-3-4 OLinemen. Ok stretch with 4 but they will all be watching that young man.

FrenzyFan · 04-17-2008, 06:54 PM

Originally Posted by rjakapeanut

Our CB situation is fine for now. I disagree with you there. Big Mike is ahead of schedule and will start for us at CB. You saying that you think Gay is a "system CB" says to me that you have done no research on him at all. He has played Man Coverage before and will thrive in our system, even if he's only there as a Nickle corner.

Usama is young and unproven but that doesn't mean he won't step in and play well for us. It's not his fault he's unproven. Every player is unproven until they step up and win a starting job, which is exactly what I think he'll do this season.

Our LB corps seem strong IMO. We have Vilma starting at MLB and a great backup in Simoneau (who can play all LB positions). Dan Morgan can come back healthy and start for us, and if need be we'll insert Scott Shanle or a WLB Draft Pick in his place. SLB seems to be fine right now with Fujita filling that role nicely. Assuming injuries aren't a HUGE problem we'll be fine at LB.

I think Dorsey WOULD put us pretty much over the top.

Almost everything you assume will be a positive for our defense is a possibility, not a certainty. All of your assertions display a lot of optimism, which is great. They are by no means a done deal.

McKenzie may defy the odds and be ready at the beginning of the season, but that would be well outside the norm for his injury. Recovery is typically right around 12 months and he tore his ACL on Dec 23. If he's ready by the season opener, that would be 8 months from the injury (not the surgery since I don't know exactly when he had it) - optimistic I would say.

Gay is absolutely a system CB. He's played more man-to-man than Jason David, but he's not even a starter for the Patriots. For the record, he was an undrafted FA. He started part of one year (2004) due to injuries to both starting corners. He was out parts of both 2005 and 2006 with injuries (placed on IR). He played in 2007, mostly as a nickel back and backup safety. I like the signing but I'm realistic about his abilities.

Usama might be the next shutdown corner, but so far we haven't seen it and thus it's just as possible he could be the next Jason David. Vilma may be everything he used to be, I hope he is but until he shows something on the field it's all "maybe". Dan Morgan might be healthy, might start, and might stay healthy.

Since you didn't talk about any of the others, I'll assume you agree with all the rest. Without the very rosy optimism, that still leaves a lot of question about almost every spot on our defense. The only area on our D I am comfortable with is DE. DT is a weakness, but not even in the same arena as LB and CB.

BRSaintsFan · 04-18-2008, 08:25 AM

Originally Posted by FrenzyFan

Almost everything you assume will be a positive for our defense is a possibility, not a certainty. All of your assertions display a lot of optimism, which is great. They are by no means a done deal.

McKenzie may defy the odds and be ready at the beginning of the season, but that would be well outside the norm for his injury. Recovery is typically right around 12 months and he tore his ACL on Dec 23. If he's ready by the season opener, that would be 8 months from the injury (not the surgery since I don't know exactly when he had it) - optimistic I would say.

Gay is absolutely a system CB. He's played more man-to-man than Jason David, but he's not even a starter for the Patriots. For the record, he was an undrafted FA. He started part of one year (2004) due to injuries to both starting corners. He was out parts of both 2005 and 2006 with injuries (placed on IR). He played in 2007, mostly as a nickel back and backup safety. I like the signing but I'm realistic about his abilities.

Usama might be the next shutdown corner, but so far we haven't seen it and thus it's just as possible he could be the next Jason David. Vilma may be everything he used to be, I hope he is but until he shows something on the field it's all "maybe". Dan Morgan might be healthy, might start, and might stay healthy.

Since you didn't talk about any of the others, I'll assume you agree with all the rest. Without the very rosy optimism, that still leaves a lot of question about almost every spot on our defense. The only area on our D I am comfortable with is DE. DT is a weakness, but not even in the same arena as LB and CB.

I am also not 100% sold on the strength of our CB and LB situation. But there are two things that still make a possible trade to get Dorsey a HUGE upgrade for our defense. First off, you are not guaranteeing upgrades at all those positions by staying put. Again, you can draft 3 guys at each of those positions but outside of getting Rivers, you likely will not see any of the guys you draft make much of an impact. IMO there are no impact players at DT aside from Dorsey and Ellis. CBs, no matter how good, take time to develop especially in the type of defense that we play. So staying put you get an impact player in Rivers. Rivers versus Dorsey - who makes the rest of your defense better? As Euph stated and has been stated before, the things that an impact DT opens up for the rest of your defense is tremendous. Anyone who has ever played a lick on the defense of any level football team knows the value of having a DT ahead or beside you who must be often accounted for by two lineman each play. I hear the concerns about the money for a #2 instead of a #10, but this is team that is ready to win soon.

pakowitz · 04-18-2008, 08:43 AM

Originally Posted by BRSaintsFan

I am also not 100% sold on the strength of our CB and LB situation. But there are two things that still make a possible trade to get Dorsey a HUGE upgrade for our defense. First off, you are not guaranteeing upgrades at all those positions by staying put. Again, you can draft 3 guys at each of those positions but outside of getting Rivers, you likely will not see any of the guys you draft make much of an impact. IMO there are no impact players at DT aside from Dorsey and Ellis. CBs, no matter how good, take time to develop especially in the type of defense that we play. So staying put you get an impact player in Rivers. Rivers versus Dorsey - who makes the rest of your defense better? As Euph stated and has been stated before, the things that an impact DT opens up for the rest of your defense is tremendous. Anyone who has ever played a lick on the defense of any level football team knows the value of having a DT ahead or beside you who must be often accounted for by two lineman each play. I hear the concerns about the money for a #2 instead of a #10, but this is team that is ready to win soon.

excellent post.. great points all the way around

on a side note.. i dont know why everyone is so concerned with our cap space.. we are about 30 million under the cap at the moment and will have plent of room to resign all of our big name FAs next year no matter who we pick this year

FrenzyFan · 04-18-2008, 03:30 PM

Originally Posted by BRSaintsFan

I am also not 100% sold on the strength of our CB and LB situation. But there are two things that still make a possible trade to get Dorsey a HUGE upgrade for our defense. First off, you are not guaranteeing upgrades at all those positions by staying put. Again, you can draft 3 guys at each of those positions but outside of getting Rivers, you likely will not see any of the guys you draft make much of an impact. IMO there are no impact players at DT aside from Dorsey and Ellis. CBs, no matter how good, take time to develop especially in the type of defense that we play. So staying put you get an impact player in Rivers. Rivers versus Dorsey - who makes the rest of your defense better? As Euph stated and has been stated before, the things that an impact DT opens up for the rest of your defense is tremendous. Anyone who has ever played a lick on the defense of any level football team knows the value of having a DT ahead or beside you who must be often accounted for by two lineman each play. I hear the concerns about the money for a #2 instead of a #10, but this is team that is ready to win soon.

Good points, but I have to stand on the idea that I'm not comfortable giving up Rivers (assuming he would be our guy) and our second round pick in this draft, for Dorsey. The argument that you may not get an upgrade for this year applies to every singly draft pick, including the #1 over all. You can look at examples of this everywhere and at every position on the field. The NFL level game is nothing like the college game and therefore there are no guarantees.

It's all a bunch of what-ifs, and I recognize that. Still feel like our defense needs more urgent help at CB and at LB than at DT. I think Dorsey will be great, just not sure if his skills can compensate for all our weaknesses. It might be better idea to keep our two early picks and try to fill more holes.

I like a great DT but when I think of the keys to great defenses, I think of LBs. For every "Mean Joe" Green, you have Ham and Lambert. I couldn't remember the name of the NT during the dome patrol years (had to look it up - Jim Wilks), but I can tell you the names of all four LBs.

Just my two cents.

Euphoria · 04-17-2008, 04:21 PM

Besides whats the worse that can happen to us drafting Dorsey??? we make the playoffs.

This also becomes a positive political move in the state of Louisiana. It wasn't that long ago we debated law makers in Baton Rouge over keeping the Saints in NO and how they treated New Oleans Saints compared to LSU Football. It'll start to build a bridge, keeping their alumni close to home so they can watch them and root for the home team for a change.

Its been awhile since I have been home but I know there are a lot of LSU fans don't care much for the Saints, which I don't understand but ok.

rjakapeanut · 04-17-2008, 07:19 PM

First of all let me thank you for coming out and opening up for this intelligent discussion rather than blasting me for my opinions in the above post. I appreciate good people.

To address McKenzie, he's stated in blogs on myspace that he's wayyy ahead of schedule as far as his recovery, and it's been stated by the coaching staff quite a few times.

I guess we'll agree to disagree about Gay. I think the guy is extremely underrated. I'm not saying he's going to come in and be a great starter for us, but I believe he'll be averages and that is all we really need. Wouldn't you agree that if we take away Jason David last season adn replace him with an average CB we're in the playoffs guaranteed? I certainly believe so. I think I'm being realistic too when I say Gay can be a solid/decent/average starter for our football club.

To touch on Usama, I really don't think there is any chance this guy can possibly be as bad as Jason David is. He's strictly a better athlete than David, by far. Look at his measurables, his combine statistics. He was a rookie last year and for him to touch the field as much as he did I find encouraging. I think he can start for us sometime this year.

Other than Gay my opinions are basically identical to yours, except that I'm hoping things work out in our favor. I can agree with you that theres less risk involved if we just select someone like Keith Rivers in the 1st and grab a DT in the 2nd, I'm willing to gamble here on Dorsey because I see the guy being a constant Pro Bowl type player 10 years running.

Champ Kind · 04-17-2008, 09:18 PM

I have no doubt whatsoever that our front seven are already ten times better than last year, just because Vilma is replacing Simoneau. Our front seven will make our DB's look 5X better. If Morgan isn't available, Shanle can step in or up and play the position he's played for 2 years. If Dorsey or Ellis were here, it would be flat out amazing in my opinion. Heck, why not use our 3rd to bring in Dre Moore or get Okam in the 5th to grow beside Dorsey/Ellis.
The only area of our Offense with need is TE in my opinion, but all of our starters from last year are back (except Faine), and I really think Meachem will be solid this year if not above average.
I say go for either one (Dorsey is my preference, especially if our first and second are all we have to give up)

04-17-2008, 03:52 PM	#1
FrenzyFan 100th Post Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 406	Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2!!! I'd be a lot happier about this deal if a dominant DT was the only thing we needed on defense. It makes sense to trade up to get the piece that will take you over the top. It will almost certainly cost us our second round pick to make the deal happen. What that says is, "I'm happy with what I have on defense." The problem is that our defense needs lots of help, and FA is essentially over. The CB situation is the most terrifying. McKenzie had a terrific year last year but may not be back, or not be back to form. We acquired Gay, but he seems like a "system" CB (see Jason David). Usama Young is unproven, don't even talk to me about Jason David. Then there's Jason Craft.... Aaron Glenn.... Our LB corps is extremely lacking as well. Everyone wants to insert Vilma as a productive LB. Problem is he has NOT been that in several years and he's coming of the "mystery" injury. I have hope for Vilma. I know many of the experts say that his production dropped because the Jets went to the 3-4. Does this not make him a role player? I know we have the right role for him, but still this is enough to at least have some doubt that he is the answer to our LB problems. If he's not, it's Simoneau again..... We acquired Dan Morgan, who could be good if he can get on the field and stay there. Even so, he was brought in to compete with Shanle for a starting spot. If Shanle is competition to you, I would not call you an even average LB. I like Fujita, so I'll give him a pass. He wasn't the first choice as a starter on some of his prior teams - but's he's lightyears better than any else we have on our roster. We could use some help in coverage at safety. We could use some consistent inside pass rush - and yes, I know this makes coverage look better when you have it. All the same, our defense has far too many problems for me to feel comfortable about "breaking the bank" to get one player - even if its a great one like Dorsey. I could live with it, if it happened - but I'm just not certain it's the best move for the team. Edited to add "NOT" to my point about Vilma above - Frenzy
FrenzyFan 100th Post Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 406	\"The AB brand of TP will hurt your O-ring.\" - BlackandBlue http://www.darrylbercegeay.com/wsmith1.jpg Last edited by FrenzyFan; 04-17-2008 at 03:55 PM..

04-17-2008, 04:01 PM	#2
rjakapeanut 100th Post Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 204	Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2!!! Our CB situation is fine for now. I disagree with you there. Big Mike is ahead of schedule and will start for us at CB. You saying that you think Gay is a "system CB" says to me that you have done no research on him at all. He has played Man Coverage before and will thrive in our system, even if he's only there as a Nickle corner. Usama is young and unproven but that doesn't mean he won't step in and play well for us. It's not his fault he's unproven. Every player is unproven until they step up and win a starting job, which is exactly what I think he'll do this season. Our LB corps seem strong IMO. We have Vilma starting at MLB and a great backup in Simoneau (who can play all LB positions). Dan Morgan can come back healthy and start for us, and if need be we'll insert Scott Shanle or a WLB Draft Pick in his place. SLB seems to be fine right now with Fujita filling that role nicely. Assuming injuries aren't a HUGE problem we'll be fine at LB. I think Dorsey WOULD put us pretty much over the top.
rjakapeanut 100th Post Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 204	http://tinyurl.com/24uuaf

04-17-2008, 04:20 PM	#3
Euphoria 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Hollywood, CA Posts: 7,601 Blog Entries: 5	Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2!!! Originally Posted by rjakapeanut Our CB situation is fine for now. I disagree with you there. Big Mike is ahead of schedule and will start for us at CB. You saying that you think Gay is a "system CB" says to me that you have done no research on him at all. He has played Man Coverage before and will thrive in our system, even if he's only there as a Nickle corner. Usama is young and unproven but that doesn't mean he won't step in and play well for us. It's not his fault he's unproven. Every player is unproven until they step up and win a starting job, which is exactly what I think he'll do this season. Our LB corps seem strong IMO. We have Vilma starting at MLB and a great backup in Simoneau (who can play all LB positions). Dan Morgan can come back healthy and start for us, and if need be we'll insert Scott Shanle or a WLB Draft Pick in his place. SLB seems to be fine right now with Fujita filling that role nicely. Assuming injuries aren't a HUGE problem we'll be fine at LB. I think Dorsey WOULD put us pretty much over the top. I have to absolutely agree with you 100 percent here. What Dorsey will bring is youth, leadership, and domance on the DL. He will free LB's, Help the CB's maintaining man to man coverage by not giving the opposing teams all day to pass. The Safties can stand around all they want then hell they'll be able to blitz as well and get to the QB while Dorsey takes on 2-3-4 OLinemen. Ok stretch with 4 but they will all be watching that young man.

04-17-2008, 06:54 PM	#4
FrenzyFan 100th Post Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 406	Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2!!! Originally Posted by rjakapeanut Our CB situation is fine for now. I disagree with you there. Big Mike is ahead of schedule and will start for us at CB. You saying that you think Gay is a "system CB" says to me that you have done no research on him at all. He has played Man Coverage before and will thrive in our system, even if he's only there as a Nickle corner. Usama is young and unproven but that doesn't mean he won't step in and play well for us. It's not his fault he's unproven. Every player is unproven until they step up and win a starting job, which is exactly what I think he'll do this season. Our LB corps seem strong IMO. We have Vilma starting at MLB and a great backup in Simoneau (who can play all LB positions). Dan Morgan can come back healthy and start for us, and if need be we'll insert Scott Shanle or a WLB Draft Pick in his place. SLB seems to be fine right now with Fujita filling that role nicely. Assuming injuries aren't a HUGE problem we'll be fine at LB. I think Dorsey WOULD put us pretty much over the top. Almost everything you assume will be a positive for our defense is a possibility, not a certainty. All of your assertions display a lot of optimism, which is great. They are by no means a done deal. McKenzie may defy the odds and be ready at the beginning of the season, but that would be well outside the norm for his injury. Recovery is typically right around 12 months and he tore his ACL on Dec 23. If he's ready by the season opener, that would be 8 months from the injury (not the surgery since I don't know exactly when he had it) - optimistic I would say. Gay is absolutely a system CB. He's played more man-to-man than Jason David, but he's not even a starter for the Patriots. For the record, he was an undrafted FA. He started part of one year (2004) due to injuries to both starting corners. He was out parts of both 2005 and 2006 with injuries (placed on IR). He played in 2007, mostly as a nickel back and backup safety. I like the signing but I'm realistic about his abilities. Usama might be the next shutdown corner, but so far we haven't seen it and thus it's just as possible he could be the next Jason David. Vilma may be everything he used to be, I hope he is but until he shows something on the field it's all "maybe". Dan Morgan might be healthy, might start, and might stay healthy. Since you didn't talk about any of the others, I'll assume you agree with all the rest. Without the very rosy optimism, that still leaves a lot of question about almost every spot on our defense. The only area on our D I am comfortable with is DE. DT is a weakness, but not even in the same arena as LB and CB.
FrenzyFan 100th Post Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 406	\"The AB brand of TP will hurt your O-ring.\" - BlackandBlue http://www.darrylbercegeay.com/wsmith1.jpg

04-18-2008, 08:25 AM	#5
BRSaintsFan 100th Post Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 449	Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2!!! Originally Posted by FrenzyFan Almost everything you assume will be a positive for our defense is a possibility, not a certainty. All of your assertions display a lot of optimism, which is great. They are by no means a done deal. McKenzie may defy the odds and be ready at the beginning of the season, but that would be well outside the norm for his injury. Recovery is typically right around 12 months and he tore his ACL on Dec 23. If he's ready by the season opener, that would be 8 months from the injury (not the surgery since I don't know exactly when he had it) - optimistic I would say. Gay is absolutely a system CB. He's played more man-to-man than Jason David, but he's not even a starter for the Patriots. For the record, he was an undrafted FA. He started part of one year (2004) due to injuries to both starting corners. He was out parts of both 2005 and 2006 with injuries (placed on IR). He played in 2007, mostly as a nickel back and backup safety. I like the signing but I'm realistic about his abilities. Usama might be the next shutdown corner, but so far we haven't seen it and thus it's just as possible he could be the next Jason David. Vilma may be everything he used to be, I hope he is but until he shows something on the field it's all "maybe". Dan Morgan might be healthy, might start, and might stay healthy. Since you didn't talk about any of the others, I'll assume you agree with all the rest. Without the very rosy optimism, that still leaves a lot of question about almost every spot on our defense. The only area on our D I am comfortable with is DE. DT is a weakness, but not even in the same arena as LB and CB. I am also not 100% sold on the strength of our CB and LB situation. But there are two things that still make a possible trade to get Dorsey a HUGE upgrade for our defense. First off, you are not guaranteeing upgrades at all those positions by staying put. Again, you can draft 3 guys at each of those positions but outside of getting Rivers, you likely will not see any of the guys you draft make much of an impact. IMO there are no impact players at DT aside from Dorsey and Ellis. CBs, no matter how good, take time to develop especially in the type of defense that we play. So staying put you get an impact player in Rivers. Rivers versus Dorsey - who makes the rest of your defense better? As Euph stated and has been stated before, the things that an impact DT opens up for the rest of your defense is tremendous. Anyone who has ever played a lick on the defense of any level football team knows the value of having a DT ahead or beside you who must be often accounted for by two lineman each play. I hear the concerns about the money for a #2 instead of a #10, but this is team that is ready to win soon.

04-18-2008, 08:43 AM	#6
pakowitz The Dark Overlord Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: dirty south Posts: 3,450	Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2!!! Originally Posted by BRSaintsFan I am also not 100% sold on the strength of our CB and LB situation. But there are two things that still make a possible trade to get Dorsey a HUGE upgrade for our defense. First off, you are not guaranteeing upgrades at all those positions by staying put. Again, you can draft 3 guys at each of those positions but outside of getting Rivers, you likely will not see any of the guys you draft make much of an impact. IMO there are no impact players at DT aside from Dorsey and Ellis. CBs, no matter how good, take time to develop especially in the type of defense that we play. So staying put you get an impact player in Rivers. Rivers versus Dorsey - who makes the rest of your defense better? As Euph stated and has been stated before, the things that an impact DT opens up for the rest of your defense is tremendous. Anyone who has ever played a lick on the defense of any level football team knows the value of having a DT ahead or beside you who must be often accounted for by two lineman each play. I hear the concerns about the money for a #2 instead of a #10, but this is team that is ready to win soon. excellent post.. great points all the way around on a side note.. i dont know why everyone is so concerned with our cap space.. we are about 30 million under the cap at the moment and will have plent of room to resign all of our big name FAs next year no matter who we pick this year

04-18-2008, 03:30 PM	#7
FrenzyFan 100th Post Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 406	Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2!!! Originally Posted by BRSaintsFan I am also not 100% sold on the strength of our CB and LB situation. But there are two things that still make a possible trade to get Dorsey a HUGE upgrade for our defense. First off, you are not guaranteeing upgrades at all those positions by staying put. Again, you can draft 3 guys at each of those positions but outside of getting Rivers, you likely will not see any of the guys you draft make much of an impact. IMO there are no impact players at DT aside from Dorsey and Ellis. CBs, no matter how good, take time to develop especially in the type of defense that we play. So staying put you get an impact player in Rivers. Rivers versus Dorsey - who makes the rest of your defense better? As Euph stated and has been stated before, the things that an impact DT opens up for the rest of your defense is tremendous. Anyone who has ever played a lick on the defense of any level football team knows the value of having a DT ahead or beside you who must be often accounted for by two lineman each play. I hear the concerns about the money for a #2 instead of a #10, but this is team that is ready to win soon. Good points, but I have to stand on the idea that I'm not comfortable giving up Rivers (assuming he would be our guy) and our second round pick in this draft, for Dorsey. The argument that you may not get an upgrade for this year applies to every singly draft pick, including the #1 over all. You can look at examples of this everywhere and at every position on the field. The NFL level game is nothing like the college game and therefore there are no guarantees. It's all a bunch of what-ifs, and I recognize that. Still feel like our defense needs more urgent help at CB and at LB than at DT. I think Dorsey will be great, just not sure if his skills can compensate for all our weaknesses. It might be better idea to keep our two early picks and try to fill more holes. I like a great DT but when I think of the keys to great defenses, I think of LBs. For every "Mean Joe" Green, you have Ham and Lambert. I couldn't remember the name of the NT during the dome patrol years (had to look it up - Jim Wilks), but I can tell you the names of all four LBs. Just my two cents.
FrenzyFan 100th Post Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 406	\"The AB brand of TP will hurt your O-ring.\" - BlackandBlue http://www.darrylbercegeay.com/wsmith1.jpg

04-17-2008, 04:21 PM	#8
Euphoria 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Hollywood, CA Posts: 7,601 Blog Entries: 5	Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2!!! Besides whats the worse that can happen to us drafting Dorsey??? we make the playoffs. This also becomes a positive political move in the state of Louisiana. It wasn't that long ago we debated law makers in Baton Rouge over keeping the Saints in NO and how they treated New Oleans Saints compared to LSU Football. It'll start to build a bridge, keeping their alumni close to home so they can watch them and root for the home team for a change. Its been awhile since I have been home but I know there are a lot of LSU fans don't care much for the Saints, which I don't understand but ok.
	E U P H O R I A Last edited by Euphoria; 04-17-2008 at 04:30 PM..

04-17-2008, 07:19 PM	#9
rjakapeanut 100th Post Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 204	Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2!!! First of all let me thank you for coming out and opening up for this intelligent discussion rather than blasting me for my opinions in the above post. I appreciate good people. To address McKenzie, he's stated in blogs on myspace that he's wayyy ahead of schedule as far as his recovery, and it's been stated by the coaching staff quite a few times. I guess we'll agree to disagree about Gay. I think the guy is extremely underrated. I'm not saying he's going to come in and be a great starter for us, but I believe he'll be averages and that is all we really need. Wouldn't you agree that if we take away Jason David last season adn replace him with an average CB we're in the playoffs guaranteed? I certainly believe so. I think I'm being realistic too when I say Gay can be a solid/decent/average starter for our football club. To touch on Usama, I really don't think there is any chance this guy can possibly be as bad as Jason David is. He's strictly a better athlete than David, by far. Look at his measurables, his combine statistics. He was a rookie last year and for him to touch the field as much as he did I find encouraging. I think he can start for us sometime this year. Other than Gay my opinions are basically identical to yours, except that I'm hoping things work out in our favor. I can agree with you that theres less risk involved if we just select someone like Keith Rivers in the 1st and grab a DT in the 2nd, I'm willing to gamble here on Dorsey because I see the guy being a constant Pro Bowl type player 10 years running.
rjakapeanut 100th Post Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 204	http://tinyurl.com/24uuaf

04-17-2008, 09:18 PM	#10
Champ Kind Nachooooooooooo Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Shreveport Posts: 71	Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2!!! I have no doubt whatsoever that our front seven are already ten times better than last year, just because Vilma is replacing Simoneau. Our front seven will make our DB's look 5X better. If Morgan isn't available, Shanle can step in or up and play the position he's played for 2 years. If Dorsey or Ellis were here, it would be flat out amazing in my opinion. Heck, why not use our 3rd to bring in Dre Moore or get Okam in the 5th to grow beside Dorsey/Ellis. The only area of our Offense with need is TE in my opinion, but all of our starters from last year are back (except Faine), and I really think Meachem will be solid this year if not above average. I say go for either one (Dorsey is my preference, especially if our first and second are all we have to give up)
	I am the gatekeeper of my destiny, and I will have my glory day in the hot sun.