Re: 2021 NFL Free Agency: New Orleans Saints
 

Yup. Name me another franchise that has made every decision correct. Hell, the glorious Patriots have had a multitude of dud draft picks. They've lived off of bringing in vets on short term deals to fill a hole here or there. They've also brought some in that they cut in short order.

Re: 2021 NFL Free Agency: New Orleans Saints
 

Re: 2021 NFL Free Agency: New Orleans Saints
 

I only have to look at the records JP!

Re: 2021 NFL Free Agency: New Orleans Saints
 

Of course not, if the criticism was warranted. I see very little area for criticism. Far, far less than most in their positions. They have done their best to put the Saints in the position to win it all more times than not over the past two decades. Unfortunately other factors come into play that can affect that ultimate success.

Re: 2021 NFL Free Agency: New Orleans Saints
 

No, they shouldn’t. Critical analysis, unbiased and unemotional =/= toxicity.

Re: 2021 NFL Free Agency: New Orleans Saints
 

No one is saying they should JP. But you act like it’s a chess game where all you have to do is make the right moves/decisions.

Since you like to pose questions as absolutes, I ask you “Should a coach/GM be held 100% responsible for everything that happens during a season and therefore fired if their team doesn’t win the SB every year ?”

Re: 2021 NFL Free Agency: New Orleans Saints
 

**** no. Hold they feet to the fire! But aye, a lot of people kept giving Drew a pass.

Re: 2021 NFL Free Agency: New Orleans Saints
 

Therein lies the issue.

Re: 2021 NFL Free Agency: New Orleans Saints
 

I don’t know what the hell people are talking about. I’ve seen/heard all kinds of criticism of Payton and Loomis; i.e. The Peate contract, The Davenport draft, the Baptiste draft, the lack of LB development, the bounty scandal..I can continue. I also have heard plenty criticism of Brees (FWIW I criticize the organization more than him). I have criticized both openly on this forum I believe.

What I have seen enough of is spoiled “fans“ not appreciative enough of what they have accomplished over the Loomis/Payton era and forgetting what it was like before. Too many “fans” not realizing what a privilege it has been knowing you are supporting a quality team that has been in the playoff race every season over their tenure and now predicting doom and gloom for the franchise from here on. Or enough people not enjoying what success they have had and trusting that the people who got them there in the first place don’t know how to get them there again. But haters gonna hate and I’d rather the team be underrated anyway...even by their own “fans”.

Re: 2021 NFL Free Agency: New Orleans Saints
 

Lets be honest division titles are nice and all and show a team is consistently good. But if i offered anyone what would you take of the two options below i'd be surprised if anyone took option A

Option A
49-15
4 Division Titles
One loss in the NFC Championship game


Or

28-36
0 Division Titles
1 Playoff Apperance
1 Superbowl


Nobody remembers division winners long term
The team has consistantly found a way to beat itself this past 4 years, barring the one loss to the Vikings in the playoffs where they beat the Saints line up all night they have pretty much blown every game they have lost in the playoffs. They kept pilling up the chips year after year and going for broke and if we like it or not the went bust trying to do it. Know you hope they can retool quickly and get back into contention. The worse possible situation happened in regards to the drop in league finances,but even without that they were still not in credit for cap space and would still have been having to push money down the road. Now that may not have been a issue to get deals done but it also hurts you if you get a player hitting FA. I don't think there is much doubt had the Saints been in a better financial position in regards to the cap they may well have filled in the joles in FA and then really gone after a QB like Wilson as the draft picks wouldn't have been as needed. But now they are at a point that they may be forced to trade up and give up future picks just to fill glaring holes at LB,CB and depth elsewhere. If they get this draft wrong it would be a very long year.

All you have to do is look at the current depth chart

DT which was a massive strong point in the past few years has gone from having Onyemata,Rankins and Brown rotating and Roach and Tuttle for back up to being Onyemata and Tuttle with Roach,Glasgow and Dalton as depth.

CB its Lattimore and Patrick Robinson(missed 22 games in the last 3 years). With Haley and Washington as back up or maybe PJ Williams.

WR, WR2 is Tre'Quan Smith
The career stat line of all our WR outside of Thomas
131 Receptions - 14 TDs.



I don't blame the team for trying to win it all but when you don't and the roster is left with these holes there is legitimate questions to ask. If Brees hadn't been the QB would they have risked everything for one last shot, i don't think so. Its felt like they threw all the eggs in one basket for Drew to get another ring and as much as people love him the team comes first.

Re: 2021 NFL Free Agency: New Orleans Saints
 

But what pick that time frame. Go back to the beginning of Payton’s tenure and make that same comparison and what do you get? Everyone would take the Saints over the Bucs.

Re: 2021 NFL Free Agency: New Orleans Saints
 

But its the past 4 years that they have been going down the path of one last shot and really being aggressive of pushing the money and void years on contracts. And its now that that era of the team is done and the piper has had to be paid until the new deal comes into place.

Re: 2021 NFL Free Agency: New Orleans Saints
 

I guess, but I don’t look at it like that. Since Payton/Loomis took over they have tried to win the SB every year. Since they took over, only NE has more SB wins than them and probably only 2-3 teams have better overall records than them. If people don’t want to recognize and appreciate that success then I feel bad for them. Add to this the Bounty gate screw and the PI non-call and the Saints have a badge of honor in my mind.

Re: 2021 NFL Free Agency: New Orleans Saints
 

Re: 2021 NFL Free Agency: New Orleans Saints
 

Re: 2021 NFL Free Agency: New Orleans Saints
 

And the Giants and Steelers who have both won 2 Superbowls since 06

Re: 2021 NFL Free Agency: New Orleans Saints
 

Realistic return for Kwon and any workouts for potential suitors is in October.

Unfortunately KA is injury prone & coming off a substantial one.

Saints must draft another LB.

Re: 2021 NFL Free Agency: New Orleans Saints
 

You are right, I missed those. I should have said since the Saints won the SB, not since Payton took over. But the comparison team you put forward is not one of those teams, correct ?

Re: 2021 NFL Free Agency: New Orleans Saints
 

And I'll repeat, of course not. If criticism is warranted then sure. But to blame them for ONLY winning a single Super Bowl is foolish. They receive plenty of warranted criticism as has been pointed out, as does every single GM and head coach in the NFL. You, however, seem to want to blame anything and everything on the two of them. Everyone is flawed. No one is perfect. But reading your constant berating of them leads one to believe they are the worse GM/coach pairing to have ever walked the earth.

Re: 2021 NFL Free Agency: New Orleans Saints
 

Not so. I am realistic. I recognize the FACT that we have enjoyed the greatest era of Saints football because of what Payton and Loomis have accomplished. Your clear distaste for them both seems almost personal in nature (ie. emotional).

Re: 2021 NFL Free Agency: New Orleans Saints
 

Just one more than the Saints. And the other franchises have managed no more than the Saints and the vast majority less. Correct?

Re: 2021 NFL Free Agency: New Orleans Saints
 

Interestingly enough with option B the franchise abandoned their normal plan of building for the future and went "all in" and had enough luck to get the final win.

Personally, I would take option A where I could know that I enjoyed winning on a regular basis and not suffering through three years of miserable games. At least through those four years under option A I knew we had a chance if everything worked out that we could win it all. Option B offered no hope at all until they decided to finally go "all in".

Sure, winning the championship is awesome. But my fandom doesn't ride on only winning it all. To get the enjoyment/entertainment of winning week by week on a regular basis is just as important to me, if not more. There's ALWAYS next year. I'm sure I'm not alone.

:bng:

P.S. - You see, I have been a Saints fan living game by game for the past 54 years. I spent the first 42 of those years without a Super Bowl win. I lived hoping that we could just win two games in a row for most of those years. I don't know how many more years I'll have left on this Earth, but to have the enjoyment of expecting to win on most every Sunday outweighs the winning of a single game in February.

Re: 2021 NFL Free Agency: New Orleans Saints
 

Re: 2021 NFL Free Agency: New Orleans Saints
 

Not true. If the criticism is warranted I have no problem. We simply have a differing viewpoint of when and what is warranted. In certain areas their philosophy differs from yours. In certain areas your philosophies differ from mine. That doesn't make any of us wrong. It means we favor different approaches.

Re: 2021 NFL Free Agency: New Orleans Saints
 

LB on the 2nd pick prolly K we are going CB first, when we had to let go of Jack rabbit the hammer dropped on CB as a dire need now, I’m calling it CB on 1st pick unless we trade up, please let’s not do that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Re: 2021 NFL Free Agency: New Orleans Saints
 

Re: 2021 NFL Free Agency: New Orleans Saints
 

I don't rush to Black & Gold to do so. It's not my MO to critic every play or decision. Have I ever disagreed with a decision here or there? Hell, yeah. But I don't make it my life's purpose to broadcast those few times.

Re: 2021 NFL Free Agency: New Orleans Saints
 

Re: 2021 NFL Free Agency: New Orleans Saints
 

Nothing anymore than any other GM or coach. Maybe a timeout being called or not here or there. I'm certainly not going to criticize them for draft picks given the extremely inexact science of its nature. I'm not going to criticize them for contract structures as a whole, nor moving up or down in a draft because I believe they know what they are doing FAR more than any of us.

There's not a single coach or GM in the league that is perfect all the time. I expect imperfection so I usually see no reason to dwell on individual instances. I'd rather sit back and enjoy since none of us have any control whatsoever.

Re: 2021 NFL Free Agency: New Orleans Saints
 

I don't think with the FO leadership and our coaching that we'll return to the days of paper bags. We are one of the most stable franchises in the NFL and it's owned by the Benson family and we are strong and solid. There may be a couple of lean years while we rebuild our roster but now everyone knows that the Saints are winners and want to play here.

Re: 2021 NFL Free Agency: New Orleans Saints
 

Re: 2021 NFL Free Agency: New Orleans Saints
 

Not at all. They are many times more qualified than any of us. Yet, even with those extra qualifications and additional information including access to medicals and face-to-face interviews nobody knows for certain how a draftee is going to work out. Using all of the information available to them they are all making their best educated "guess" of the eventual success of the selected prospect. It is absolutely an inexact science.

An extensive study done in 2015 on all drafts picks (non-kickers) between 2005 and 2014 showed that only 25.5% of all drafted players became starters for at least half of their careers. It also broke it down between rounds taken and position. The success rate (starting) of DL, RB, and WR picked in the first round is only 58%. QB's are only slightly better at 63%.

Here's a nice summary:

Historic Success Chart

The numbers show us the following outline for finding consistent starters:

1st Round - OL (83%) LB (70%) TE (67%) DB (64%) QB (63%) WR (58%) RB (58%) DL (58%)

2nd Round - OL (70%) LB (55%) TE (50%) WR (49%) DB (46%) QB (27%) DL (26%) RB (25%)

3rd Round - OL (40%) TE (39%) LB (34%) DL (27%) WR (25%) DB (24%) QB (17%) RB (16%)

4th Round - DL (37%) TE (33%) OL (29%) LB (16%) WR(12%) DB (11%) RB (11%) QB (8%)

5th Round - TE (32%) DB (17%) WR (16%) OL (16%) DL (13%) RB (9%) LB (4%) QB (0%)

6th Round - TE (26%) OL (16%) DL (13%) WR (9%) DB (8%) RB (6%) LB (5%) QB (0%)

7th Round - DB (11%) OL (9%) QB (6%) WR (5%) DL (3%) LB (2%) RB (0%) TE (0%)

Of note are the defensive line draftees. Outside of the fourth round their success rates are dramatically low.

Re: 2021 NFL Free Agency: New Orleans Saints
 

It’s an argument I’ve made many times jp. All teams have the ball bounce for them and against them throughout a season. Same for draft and free agent acquisitions. That doesn’t mean “inexact” should be used as an excuse for failure, or as a predicate to a mindset of accepting everything..., bc it’s... “inexact”. Science and Medicine are “inexact” also, but the objective is to constantly improve accuracy and tolerances. Consummate professionals are always improving their craft, never accepting the status quo, never accepting “inexact” as an excuse for not meeting their goals.

Re: 2021 NFL Free Agency: New Orleans Saints
 

Hitting a baseball is an "inexact" science, as well. The best hitters of all times fail to get a hit almost 70% of the time. I've seen the greatest hit into a double play with the bases loaded down one in the bottom of the ninth with one out many times over the past 55 plus years. I'm never going to criticize them for that failure.

The same goes for the draft. The very best talent evaluators are going to swing and miss fairly regularly. The reason being nobody can completely and accurately predict the future. That is the proven nature of the draft. The numbers spell that out. I can see being disappointed a given draft pick doesn't pan out, but I fail to see the need to blame the person, or people, that made the decision to draft them.

I understand wanting to meet one's goals, but when those goals as determined by others are impossible to achieve it is a different story. Some people seem to see anything less than perfection as an open invitation to proclaim failure as the result. The word "inexact" is not an excuse. It is an adjective correctly describing the nature of something. There is no excuse for a draft pick not becoming a success nor is any excuse needed.

Re: 2021 NFL Free Agency: New Orleans Saints
 

Now I know why we draft O-line in the first round year after year. It's the most productive position in the draft. Like I always say you win in the trenches.

Re: 2021 NFL Free Agency: New Orleans Saints
 

Re: 2021 NFL Free Agency: New Orleans Saints
 

Re: 2021 NFL Free Agency: New Orleans Saints
 

Re: 2021 NFL Free Agency: New Orleans Saints
 

Not all that familiar with his complete body of work but he's a burner.

SPEED.

Re: 2021 NFL Free Agency: New Orleans Saints
 

More qualified than either of us, that's for sure. Just as Pete Rose was more qualified in the inexact science of hitting than you or I.

;)